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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

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  • Bill McNutt
    That s actually where I m at, most of the time. It never made sense to me to stain poplar cherry. It doesn t LOOK like cherry. It looks like poplar that s
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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      That's actually where I'm at, most of the time. It never made sense to me
      to stain poplar cherry. It doesn't LOOK like cherry. It looks like poplar
      that's the wrong color. And you're not gonna make number 2 pine look like
      anything but number 2 pine. So I try to guide my students to just seal it,
      and let the real nature of the wood show through.

      Will

      -----Original Message-----
      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com

      . Normaly I avoid stains entirely and use teh natural color of
      the wood under a few coats of linseed oil serve as all the color on the
      piece.
      THL Finnr
    • Tracy Swanson
      Ah, yes. The old BLO + MS. I was ready to finish a carved, heart-shaped jewelry box made of mahogany for my lady. I had always has a hard time with mahogany
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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        Ah, yes. The old BLO + MS. I was ready to finish a carved, heart-shaped jewelry box made of mahogany for my lady. I had always has a hard time with mahogany because of the rate at which it would absorb whatever finish I put on it (like a straw). I was told by a gentle at WoodCraft that if I were to use the BLO + MS finish it would be a perfect semi gloss finish that would dry quickly. Two weeks later, when I entered it in the Oklahoma State Fair, it was still just barely tacky. This was after setting it out in the sun for for more than a week. All worked out though, I won a red ribbon for the project and learned a valuable lesson at the same time.
         
        Speaking of mahogany, I have, on several occasions, seen David J. Markes on the TV show Woodworks use a chemical called  potassium di-sulfate <sp> to age mahogany prior to finishing with tung oil. The problem is, no one around here has even heard of potassium di-sulfate, let alone where to find it. Any suggestions?
         
        In Magical Service,
        Malaki
         
         
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of kjworz@...
        Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:19 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com; medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Tracy Swanson
        Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

        I was told the miracle cure for even pine staining was a 'spit coat' of boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. 1 part BLO, 5 parts thinner. Apply the stain after the thinner/spirits evaporates. Half an hour or so?

        When I tried it I notice much better results, but not the perfection I was promised. Minor streaks instead of major.

        That's what I use for a sanding sealer.

        --
        -Chris Schwartz
        Silver Spring, MD

        ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
        From: "Tracy Swanson" <tstar2000@cox. net>
        > All right, I'll bite:
        > How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every time
        > I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up with
        > the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At
        > that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is there a
        > step of which I have not been informed?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Malaki
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
        > [mailto:medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
        > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:44 AM
        > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white
        > oak.
        >
        >
        >
        > Pine CAN be stained and look good.
        >
        > The problem with staining pine is that it soaks up the stain where the
        > grain is broken - usually due to sanding. So, what you get are dark
        > blotches. This can be easily fixed by appling a sealer to the wood
        > before staining. Also, it seems to help to use a gel stain, which
        > soaks in more evenly.
        >
        > Agree about using large dimension structural pine. It's much denser
        > and stronger than the crappy stuff made for wall framing.
        >
        > And if you must use dimensional lumber in medieval-oid furniture,
        > Please, please, please, run it through the planer a few times to make
        > it non-dimensional! Nothing looks like a bunch of 2x4s nailed together
        > more than... a bunch of 2x4s nailed together. (gives a smoother
        > surface as well)
        >
        > - Jeff
        >
        > --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > as for color and grain, i dunno. ive always liked the grain, and
        > ive seen
        > > pine take several stains, from classic walnut iron stain to lemon oil,
        > > rather well.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >

      • Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
        Are you sure it was boiled linseed oil you used and not raw linseed oil? Raw has a quality that it never really quite dries. Also, once you put the oil on, you
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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          Are you sure it was boiled linseed oil you used and not raw linseed oil? Raw has
          a quality that it never really quite dries. Also, once you put the oil on, you
          would want to wipe the excess off to let the rest dry. I wonder if the humidity
          was just too high or something. Did it dry further later?

          The formula I know of for a boiled linseed oil finish is to coat the item every
          day for a week, wiping the excess off after an hour or so, then coat it again
          once a week for a month or so with a renewal coat annually.

          Haraldr

          Tracy Swanson wrote:
          > Ah, yes. The old BLO + MS. I was ready to finish a carved, heart-shaped
          > jewelry box made of mahogany for my lady. I had always has a hard time with
          > mahogany because of the rate at which it would absorb whatever finish I put
          > on it (like a straw). I was told by a gentle at WoodCraft that if I were to
          > use the BLO + MS finish it would be a perfect semi gloss finish that would
          > dry quickly. Two weeks later, when I entered it in the Oklahoma State Fair,
          > it was still just barely tacky. This was after setting it out in the sun for
          > for more than a week. All worked out though, I won a red ribbon for the
          > project and learned a valuable lesson at the same time.
          >
          > Speaking of mahogany, I have, on several occasions, seen David J. Markes on
          > the TV show Woodworks use a chemical called potassium di-sulfate <sp> to
          > age mahogany prior to finishing with tung oil. The problem is, no one around
          > here has even heard of potassium di-sulfate, let alone where to find it. Any
          > suggestions?
          >
          > In Magical Service,
          > Malaki
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of kjworz@...
          > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:19 AM
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com; medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > Cc: Tracy Swanson
          > Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or
          > white oak.
          >
          >
          > I was told the miracle cure for even pine staining was a 'spit coat' of
          > boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. 1 part BLO, 5 parts thinner. Apply
          > the stain after the thinner/spirits evaporates. Half an hour or so?
          >
          > When I tried it I notice much better results, but not the perfection I was
          > promised. Minor streaks instead of major.
          >
          > That's what I use for a sanding sealer.
          >
          > --
          > -Chris Schwartz
          > Silver Spring, MD
          >
          > -------------- Original message ----------------------
          > From: "Tracy Swanson" <tstar2000@...>
          > > All right, I'll bite:
          > > How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every
          > time
          > > I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up
          > with
          > > the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At
          > > that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is there
          > a
          > > step of which I have not been informed?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Malaki
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
          > > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:44 AM
          > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or
          > white
          > > oak.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Pine CAN be stained and look good.
          > >
          > > The problem with staining pine is that it soaks up the stain where the
          > > grain is broken - usually due to sanding. So, what you get are dark
          > > blotches. This can be easily fixed by appling a sealer to the wood
          > > before staining. Also, it seems to help to use a gel stain, which
          > > soaks in more evenly.
          > >
          > > Agree about using large dimension structural pine. It's much denser
          > > and stronger than the crappy stuff made for wall framing.
          > >
          > > And if you must use dimensional lumber in medieval-oid furniture,
          > > Please, please, please, run it through the planer a few times to make
          > > it non-dimensional! Nothing looks like a bunch of 2x4s nailed together
          > > more than... a bunch of 2x4s nailed together. (gives a smoother
          > > surface as well)
          > >
          > > - Jeff
          > >
          > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@...>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > > as for color and grain, i dunno. ive always liked the grain, and
          > > ive seen
          > > > pine take several stains, from classic walnut iron stain to lemon oil,
          > > > rather well.
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Tracy Swanson
          As you described it, it was boiled and applied as you suggested. Admittedly the humidity did go up substantially about four weeks into the drying procedure
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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            As you described it, it was boiled and applied as you suggested. Admittedly the humidity did go up substantially about four weeks into the drying procedure (sorry, I miss-typed the drying time - it should have read two MONTHs instead of weeks) when it started raining unexpectedly as it was drying on the roof of my carport. I did get it off of the roof prior to it absorbing much moisture, resulting in the re-sanding of the bottom of both the box and the bottom of the lid, which had not yet had a finish applied. This is when I had my back against the wall and I started rushing the drying process with a heater and fans, not to mention putting it back on the sun-drenched roof after the clouds had cleared. Fortunately there turned out to be no damage.
             
            When I retrieved it from the State Fair a few weeks later it was perfectly dry to the touch and the box had a beautiful finish. Because of the extra long drying time though, I would not risk this finish again unless I had PLENTY of time for it to dry, preferably in a less dusty atmosphere than my shop (my wife suffers from migraines so bringing it into the house was out of the question, due to the fumes).
             
            Any ideas on the potassium di sulfate?
             
            In Magical Service,
            Malaki
             
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
            Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:42 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

            Are you sure it was boiled linseed oil you used and not raw linseed oil? Raw has
            a quality that it never really quite dries. Also, once you put the oil on, you
            would want to wipe the excess off to let the rest dry. I wonder if the humidity
            was just too high or something. Did it dry further later?

            The formula I know of for a boiled linseed oil finish is to coat the item every
            day for a week, wiping the excess off after an hour or so, then coat it again
            once a week for a month or so with a renewal coat annually.

            Haraldr

            Tracy Swanson wrote:
            > Ah, yes. The old BLO + MS. I was ready to finish a carved, heart-shaped
            > jewelry box made of mahogany for my lady. I had always has a hard time with
            > mahogany because of the rate at which it would absorb whatever finish I put
            > on it (like a straw). I was told by a gentle at WoodCraft that if I were to
            > use the BLO + MS finish it would be a perfect semi gloss finish that would
            > dry quickly. Two weeks later, when I entered it in the Oklahoma State Fair,
            > it was still just barely tacky. This was after setting it out in the sun for
            > for more than a week. All worked out though, I won a red ribbon for the
            > project and learned a valuable lesson at the same time.
            >
            > Speaking of mahogany, I have, on several occasions, seen David J. Markes on
            > the TV show Woodworks use a chemical called potassium di-sulfate <sp> to
            > age mahogany prior to finishing with tung oil. The problem is, no one around
            > here has even heard of potassium di-sulfate, let alone where to find it. Any
            > suggestions?
            >
            > In Magical Service,
            > Malaki
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            > [mailto:medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of kjworz@comcast. net
            > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:19 AM
            > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com; medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            > Cc: Tracy Swanson
            > Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or
            > white oak.
            >
            >
            > I was told the miracle cure for even pine staining was a 'spit coat' of
            > boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. 1 part BLO, 5 parts thinner. Apply
            > the stain after the thinner/spirits evaporates. Half an hour or so?
            >
            > When I tried it I notice much better results, but not the perfection I was
            > promised. Minor streaks instead of major.
            >
            > That's what I use for a sanding sealer.
            >
            > --
            > -Chris Schwartz
            > Silver Spring, MD
            >
            > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
            > From: "Tracy Swanson" <tstar2000@cox. net>
            > > All right, I'll bite:
            > > How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every
            > time
            > > I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up
            > with
            > > the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At
            > > that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is there
            > a
            > > step of which I have not been informed?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Malaki
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            > > [mailto:medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
            > > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:44 AM
            > > To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or
            > white
            > > oak.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Pine CAN be stained and look good.
            > >
            > > The problem with staining pine is that it soaks up the stain where the
            > > grain is broken - usually due to sanding. So, what you get are dark
            > > blotches. This can be easily fixed by appling a sealer to the wood
            > > before staining. Also, it seems to help to use a gel stain, which
            > > soaks in more evenly.
            > >
            > > Agree about using large dimension structural pine. It's much denser
            > > and stronger than the crappy stuff made for wall framing.
            > >
            > > And if you must use dimensional lumber in medieval-oid furniture,
            > > Please, please, please, run it through the planer a few times to make
            > > it non-dimensional! Nothing looks like a bunch of 2x4s nailed together
            > > more than... a bunch of 2x4s nailed together. (gives a smoother
            > > surface as well)
            > >
            > > - Jeff
            > >
            > > --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > > > as for color and grain, i dunno. ive always liked the grain, and
            > > ive seen
            > > > pine take several stains, from classic walnut iron stain to lemon oil,
            > > > rather well.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

          • Tracy Swanson
            My memory is not quite what it should be today. It just struck me that the chemistry D.J. Marks was using was potassium di chromate. Could make a bit of
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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              My memory is not quite what it should be today. It just struck me that the chemistry D.J. Marks was using was potassium di chromate. Could make a bit of difference...
               
              In Magical Service,
              Malaki
            • Jeff Johnson
              My mistake. Pre-stain not sealer. http://www.minwax.com/products/woodprep/prestain.cfm ... Every time ... with ... there a
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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                My mistake. Pre-stain not sealer.

                http://www.minwax.com/products/woodprep/prestain.cfm

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Swanson"
                <tstar2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > All right, I'll bite:
                > How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show?
                Every time
                > I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up
                with
                > the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At
                > that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is
                there a
                > step of which I have not been informed?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Malaki
                >
              • Ken Cockrell
                Okay I ll take a shot at this, what I think he s referring to his call wood conditioner, you can make your own by diluting your sealer with its appropriate
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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                  Okay I'll take a shot at this,
                      what I think he's referring to his call wood conditioner, you can make your own by diluting your sealer with its appropriate base.(I use lacquer based products and the ratio is 10 parts lacquer thinner to 1 part lacquer ) to apply sand your material to about 120 grit,
                  apply conditioner by wetting a lint free cloth and squeezing out almost all extra material.  Apply by pulling the cloth in one direction with the grain, and only dampen the wood surface.  Be sure not to scrub.  This will dry in about two minutes.  Very lightly sand the wood was no more than 150 grit paper.  I'm not sure how well this will work with oil-based stains but it works well with mineral spirits based.  I usually apply with a brush and build a color to the desired Jade.  Don't worry so much about penetration as the conditioner will bond with the wood and the stain will bond with the conditioner.  Allow a little extra drying time and topcoat to finish.

                  Crispin
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:14 AM
                  Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

                  All right, I'll bite:
                  How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every time I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up with the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is there a step of which I have not been informed?
                   
                  Thanks,
                  Malaki
                   
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
                  Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:44 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.


                  Pine CAN be stained and look good.

                  The problem with staining pine is that it soaks up the stain where the
                  grain is broken - usually due to sanding. So, what you get are dark
                  blotches. This can be easily fixed by appling a sealer to the wood
                  before staining. Also, it seems to help to use a gel stain, which
                  soaks in more evenly.

                  Agree about using large dimension structural pine. It's much denser
                  and stronger than the crappy stuff made for wall framing.

                  And if you must use dimensional lumber in medieval-oid furniture,
                  Please, please, please, run it through the planer a few times to make
                  it non-dimensional! Nothing looks like a bunch of 2x4s nailed together
                  more than... a bunch of 2x4s nailed together. (gives a smoother
                  surface as well)

                  - Jeff

                  --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
                  wrote:

                  > as for color and grain, i dunno. ive always liked the grain, and
                  ive seen
                  > pine take several stains, from classic walnut iron stain to lemon oil,
                  > rather well.
                  >
                  >

                • Tracy Swanson
                  Now that sounds as though it will work - I ll have to try it. Thanks! In Magical Service, Malaki ... From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 9, 2007
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                    Now that sounds as though it will work - I'll have to try it.
                     
                    Thanks!
                    In Magical Service,
                    Malaki
                     
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ken Cockrell
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:57 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

                    Okay I'll take a shot at this,
                        what I think he's referring to his call wood conditioner, you can make your own by diluting your sealer with its appropriate base.(I use lacquer based products and the ratio is 10 parts lacquer thinner to 1 part lacquer ) to apply sand your material to about 120 grit,
                    apply conditioner by wetting a lint free cloth and squeezing out almost all extra material.  Apply by pulling the cloth in one direction with the grain, and only dampen the wood surface.  Be sure not to scrub.  This will dry in about two minutes.  Very lightly sand the wood was no more than 150 grit paper.  I'm not sure how well this will work with oil-based stains but it works well with mineral spirits based.  I usually apply with a brush and build a color to the desired Jade.  Don't worry so much about penetration as the conditioner will bond with the wood and the stain will bond with the conditioner.  Allow a little extra drying time and topcoat to finish.

                    Crispin
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:14 AM
                    Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

                    All right, I'll bite:
                    How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every time I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end up with the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in at all. At that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois finish. Is there a step of which I have not been informed?
                     
                    Thanks,
                    Malaki
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:44 AM
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.


                    Pine CAN be stained and look good.

                    The problem with staining pine is that it soaks up the stain where the
                    grain is broken - usually due to sanding. So, what you get are dark
                    blotches. This can be easily fixed by appling a sealer to the wood
                    before staining. Also, it seems to help to use a gel stain, which
                    soaks in more evenly.

                    Agree about using large dimension structural pine. It's much denser
                    and stronger than the crappy stuff made for wall framing.

                    And if you must use dimensional lumber in medieval-oid furniture,
                    Please, please, please, run it through the planer a few times to make
                    it non-dimensional! Nothing looks like a bunch of 2x4s nailed together
                    more than... a bunch of 2x4s nailed together. (gives a smoother
                    surface as well)

                    - Jeff

                    --- In medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com, "leaking pen" <itsatrap@.. .>
                    wrote:

                    > as for color and grain, i dunno. ive always liked the grain, and
                    ive seen
                    > pine take several stains, from classic walnut iron stain to lemon oil,
                    > rather well.
                    >
                    >

                  • Bruce S. R. Lee
                    Potassium Bichromate - corrosive & toxic, which is why you will find it hard to get at a big-box hardware or regular lumber supplier. I believe some specialist
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 10, 2007
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                      Potassium Bichromate - corrosive & toxic, which is why you will find
                      it hard to get at a big-box hardware or regular lumber supplier. I
                      believe some specialist wood stores may still supply it, but I don't
                      know if you can ship it by US post. Alternately chemical suppliers
                      may be prepared to sell small lots - check who supplies local high
                      schools with their lab chemicals.

                      regards
                      Brusi of Orkney
                      Rowany/Lochac
                      Sydney/Australia

                      At 06:06 AM 10/02/2007, you wrote:
                      >My memory is not quite what it should be today. It just struck me
                      >that the chemistry D.J. Marks was using was potassium di chromate.
                      >Could make a bit of difference...
                      >
                      >In Magical Service,
                      >Malaki
                    • Tracy Swanson
                      I hadn t thought of chemistry suppliers. I had tried every wood specialty store and paint store I could find. Thanks for the lead! In Magical Service, Malaki
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 10, 2007
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                        I hadn't thought of chemistry suppliers. I had tried every wood specialty store and paint store I could find. Thanks for the lead!
                         
                        In Magical Service,
                        Malaki
                         
                         
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bruce S. R. Lee
                        Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:53 AM
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Potassium Bichromate - was Re: Hatred for the evergreen, was red or white oak.

                        Potassium Bichromate - corrosive & toxic, which is why you will find
                        it hard to get at a big-box hardware or regular lumber supplier. I
                        believe some specialist wood stores may still supply it, but I don't
                        know if you can ship it by US post. Alternately chemical suppliers
                        may be prepared to sell small lots - check who supplies local high
                        schools with their lab chemicals.

                        regards
                        Brusi of Orkney
                        Rowany/Lochac
                        Sydney/Australia

                        At 06:06 AM 10/02/2007, you wrote:
                        >My memory is not quite what it should be today. It just struck me
                        >that the chemistry D.J. Marks was using was potassium di chromate.
                        >Could make a bit of difference.. .
                        >
                        >In Magical Service,
                        >Malaki

                      • AlbionWood
                        I m coming late to this discussion, but it appears there is still some confusion about terminology and applications. I ll try to clear some of that up, and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 10, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'm coming late to this discussion, but it appears there is still some
                          confusion about terminology and applications. I'll try to clear some of
                          that up, and hope I don't have the opposite effect!

                          Two different products/applications are being conflated here. Sanding
                          sealer is one thing, stain controller is another. Sanding sealer is
                          used to seal the surface of the wood before final sanding, to leave a
                          smoother surface with filled pores (and prevent grain raising), so the
                          finish goes on smoother. Stain, or anything else, will not penetrate
                          effectively, that's why it's called a sealer! I don't think this stuff
                          has much application for us - it's used mainly to produce better
                          film-finishes (lacquer, shellac, or varnish) on contemporary styles of
                          furniture. It wasn't used pre-1600 and will give a non-period-looking
                          finish.

                          What you want is usually called stain controller or pre-stain. It's
                          basically a thinned finish of some type that will penetrate the wood and
                          partially, but not completely, seal the pores. There are lots of
                          different formulas for this; much depends on the type of stain you
                          intend to apply, as well as the wood it's going onto. If properly done,
                          stain controller reduces the penetration of stain into the wood, which
                          in turn reduces the blotchy effect stain has on raw pine, poplar, or
                          cherry (among others). In these woods, the porosity is quite variable
                          across the surface of a board, and so some areas quickly absorb lots of
                          stain and get darker than others. In cherry and pine this happens
                          mainly because the grain is not parallel to the board surface and so
                          there are areas of exposed end-grain, even on the face of a board. (I
                          don't know what it is about poplar, maybe the same thing.)

                          Stain controller is really a way of trying to cope with an unsuitable
                          mix of technique and materials. A better approach, by far, would be to
                          avoid getting into the situation of trying to stain pine in the first
                          place. Pine takes paint very well; both pine and paint (and paint on
                          pine!) are period, so why not do that instead of trying to make pine
                          look like something else?

                          I don't hate on pine - what I dislike is the way people try to use it as
                          a substitute for some other wood that is more appropriate for the
                          application. Sure it's cheap, but if you have to do all this
                          complicated staining etc. to get it to look like the wood you wanted...
                          why not just start with the wood that will look right? And for certain
                          things, like Glastonbury chairs, pine is completely inappropriate (it
                          isn't strong enough). Woodworking isn't really a cheap hobby, so I'm
                          always surprised when people cheap out on the materials.



                          Tracy Swanson wrote:
                          > All right, I'll bite:
                          > How do you use a sanding sealer and still get the grain to show? Every
                          > time I have used a sanding sealer, even if I sand it afterwards, I end
                          > up with the stain basically sitting on the surface without soaking in
                          > at all. At that point I might as well just be applying a faux bois
                          > finish. Is there a step of which I have not been informed?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Malaki
                          >
                          >
                          >
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