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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Architecture Questions

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  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
    Not a death trap but it can get messy if you get in one of Lillies 40 knot down drafts. 4x4 without knots should do for the top two, they are the most
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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      Not a death trap but it can get messy if you get in one of Lillies 40 knot down drafts.  4x4 without knots should do for the top two, they are the most critical.  The uprights are in compression so 4x4 is plenty.  The cuff on the other hand is important and you have not given enough info for evaluation.  You may want an extra 10 foor upright to put under the center when the wind blows.
       
      James Cunningham
      Who saw flying tents at Lillies. 

      Greetins all,
       
      I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?
       
      Thanks!
       
      Volkahard
      House Hedgehog


      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

    • Bill McNutt
      I ve built a LOT of tent poles in my day, and IMNSHPO, I think you re over-building your ridgepole and adding hazard where it is not necessary. If I were in
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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        I’ve built a LOT of tent poles in my day, and IMNSHPO, I think you’re over-building your ridgepole and adding hazard where it is not necessary. 

         

        If I were in your position, I would consider a pair of 2” x 6” beams mounted on edge and joined with a lap joint, cuff, and retaining bolt.  I believe it will be strong enough, lighter to carry, raise, and store, and be somewhat less lethal if you suffer a catastrophic failure.

         

        But this is a longer span than any I’ve made, so break out your grain of salt.

         

        Master William

         

        PS

         

        You might contact Panther Primitives and find out what they recommend for their largest ridgepole.  You might be pleasantly surprised.  I’ve never needed a ridge pole larger than a tuba four. But then, I’ve never tried to span 20’.

         

         


        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Thomas E Handwerker
        Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:29 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Architecture Questions

         

        Greetins all,

         

        I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?

         

        Thanks!

         

        Volkahard

        House Hedgehog

         


        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

      • Bill McNutt
        Oooh, good idea. We had one of those for a large marquee we used to have. The center upright does not have to be in the way, but it needs to be stored outside
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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          Oooh, good idea. We had one of those for a large marquee we used to have.  The center upright does not have to be in the way, but it needs to be stored outside the tent along the edge so that it can be easily reached, and the tent needs to be organized so that the center pole can be put in quickly.

           

          Will

           


          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James W. Pratt, Jr.
          Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:08 AM
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Architecture Questions

           

          Not a death trap but it can get messy if you get in one of Lillies 40 knot down drafts.  4x4 without knots should do for the top two, they are the most critical.  The uprights are in compression so 4x4 is plenty.  The cuff on the other hand is important and you have not given enough info for evaluation.  You may want an extra 10 foor upright to put under the center when the wind blows.

           

          James Cunningham

          Who saw flying tents at Lillies. 

           

          Greetins all,

           

          I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?

           

          Thanks!

           

          Volkahard

          House Hedgehog


          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

        • Helen Schultz
          I have a 12 x 20 rectangular pavilion (which is almost as long as your 24 pavilion) that I made my poles for. I glued together two 1 x 4 fir boards so
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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            I have a 12' x 20' rectangular pavilion (which is almost as long as your 24' pavilion) that I made my poles for.  I glued together two 1" x 4" fir boards so that one end had a 2' break for my ridge pole, which is 14' long (I did this in two pieces, by the way).  I then drilled three holes for bolts to hold the two pieces of the glued ridge pole together.  When I made my uprights, I had the tent company place the top holes into the pavilion top in 3' from each end... and then glued up 4 of the 1" x 4"  fir boards for them.  My upright poles are 10' and 11.5' respectively (the shorter ones are for my personal pavilion).  I'd have made them a touch thinner, but don't have any way to really thin them out, and the processed sizes were convenient (and the fir was already nicely rounded on the edges <sheepish grin>.  I used Elmer's wood glue and clamped them all together for no less than 24 hours (often longer) with screw clamps.
             
            I've loaded a couple images into my folder in the Photos section (Katarina Helene)... look at:  "Pavilion Superstructure Diagrams" to see how I made my connections (I don't say these are the only way, but they work quite well for me).  The uprights, by the way, are held onto the ridge pole with dowels (as well as a metal rod sunk 1' into the uprights for my pennons and high wind ropes).  You can see this connection in the "Connection Detail to Ridge Pole" photo.  To see the actual upright connections, see "Inside my pavilion" (the pole on the right is the clearest).
             
            I've not done a Lilies war, but have done at least 5 Pennsics with my big communal tent (there is also a photo of that in my folder, but doesn't show the uprights where they connect to the ridge pole.
             
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL
            Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana)  http://narrental.home.comcast.net
            Middle Kingdom
            http://meisterin.katarina.home.comcast.net
             
            "A room without books is like a body without a soul." -- Cicero
             
            "The danger in life is not that we aim too high and miss.
            The problem is that we aim too low and hit the mark."  -- Michaelangelo
             
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             
          • Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
            Please realize that I don t know of any extant tent that has been found even approaching this size. That said, to safely span that distance I would use three
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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              Please realize that I don't know of any extant tent that has been found even
              approaching this size. That said, to safely span that distance I would use three
              uprights of circa 10' clear 2"x3" (even decent Douglas Fir would be enough) for
              the uprights. My current tent spans a 12' space with a simple douglas fir 2x4
              with 2x3 uprights. For the cross beam, if you have access to hardware, I'd
              laminate two pieces of 5/4"x4" ash or hickory. I'd cut the pieces to be 10' and
              14' long and make each beam one of each length leaving you a 4' overlap between
              the two beams and each beam would break down to 14' long. I'd angle the ends of
              the cuts 15 degrees so that there is an additional mechanical advantage should
              the center pole fall out. I'd use lag bolts every 12" to join the beams over the
              4' section. starting the bolts 6" away from where you leave a cutout for the
              spike on the center pole. Remember that the spikes that connect your uprights to
              the cross beam don't need to penetrate the roof, or even penetrate the cross beam.

              You could make the cross beam with two 14' long 2x4 douglas fir beams as well,
              but I would probably attach a 4' long 2x4 as an inverted T under the joint to
              make a support to spread the upright pressure to both beams. Again, you bolt the
              two beams together with 2' passing through the center from each beam. Again, lag
              bolts will be needed.

              For even better strength of the joint, you could route a 4' long by 1/2"x1/2"
              channel into the sides of each 2x4 and glue two 2' long by 1"x1/2" hardwood
              splines into the last 2' of each of the 2x4s. Arrange the bolts to be above and
              below the spline line. The splines will become the joint between the two beams.
              You will need to just lightly sand or plane the edges of the spline that goes
              into the groove of the other beam or make the rabbet oversized slightly and use
              an expanding glue to secure the spline. You want the spline to be tight, but not
              so tight that it won't come loose. You could likely make the spline trough
              3/8x3/8 and still get a decent strength from it. Then you could use it with the
              beam you make from 2 layers of hardwood. It wouldn't hurt to even use a table
              saw and rip a pair of grooves down the entire length of all four beam pieces and
              use a spline to join the two pieces to make each beam half. Still, use a
              separate spline glued into the last 2' of each beam. This causes a mechanical
              lock that even keeps the beams from wanting to flex or separate laterally.


              As I'm typing, I'd end up going straight to the last idea of 5/4x4 hardwood with
              splines down the entire length of the joint skipping 2' and then a spline at the
              last 2' of the overlap. That will make a phenomenally tight and strong beam that
              isn't excessively heavy nor unwieldy to transport. If you use the pairs of 2x4
              passing by each other, you need to ease the top edges of the 2x4s so they don't
              have a sharp corner poking into the canvas. I certainly wouldn't use 4x4 for
              either the uprights nor the cross beams and especially not pressure treated
              anything. The weight increase and cost of PT is too high.

              Haraldr


              Thomas E Handwerker wrote:
              > Greetins all,
              >
              > I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am
              > attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking
              > of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each
              > end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s
              > as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich
              > steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold
              > the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              > Volkahard House Hedgehog
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo!
              > Mail beta.
            • Craig Robert Pierpont
              M Lord, Why pressure treat? Especially for the cross member. Flying termites? It s way heavier but not way stronger. Why 4x4? A 4x4 is only twice as strong as
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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                M'Lord,
                 
                Why pressure treat? Especially for the cross member. Flying termites? It's way heavier but not way stronger.
                 
                Why 4x4? A 4x4 is only twice as strong as a 2x4. A 2x8 weighs the same but is 4 times as strong in relation to downward pressure. The side to side stresses will presumably be balanced by the two opposing sides of the tent. 
                 
                If one wanted to be really clever, one could correct for the inevitable sag at the splice by a tensioned cable on the bottom of the beam. (Just cause you could.)

                Craig Robert
                Lord Craig Robert le Luthier de Pierrepont OVO CAR
                Apprentice to Dame Alysea of Ashley
                 

                Pavilion Architecture Questions

                Posted by: "Thomas E Handwerker" ghandwerker@...   ghandwerker

                Fri Feb 2, 2007 6:29 am (PST)

                Greetins all,

                I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?

                Thanks!

                Volkahard
                House Hedgehog


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              • Rapier3971@aol.com
                As an Architect used to dealing in spans and loads I may be able to give you a little help :-), I don t recommend using treaded 4 x 4 s. They will twist on you
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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                  As an Architect used to dealing in spans and loads I may be able to give you a little help :-), I don't recommend using treaded 4 x 4's. They will twist on you like a pretzel. I'm yet to see one remain straight when used horizontal. Their strength comes from vertical support. 24' is a hell of a span even it we go as low as a 4 pound roof load (very low weight compare to a normal structure) If I had the actual size of the tent I can figure out a weight load on the ridge beam, which is what you are making. Instead I would use yellow pine nominal lumber and lap join the two pieces, use a steel sleeve like you planned and bolt it using 1/2" bolts. Even with that I would not sleep under it. I would put a center post. With the low weight of a tent roof I would not recommend anything less than 2 x 10's.
                  Another important point: How are you attaching the end posts to the ridge beam? The structure is only as good as the joint of the supports. Email me with more information and I will be able to figure out the loads.
                  For the rest of the group, if you guys need a plan drawn for one of you projects I would not mind drawing it in AutoCad for you. I have gotten some good information out of the group and it is a small way to help out.
                  Pepin de Bourgogne
                  (Joe)
                   
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: ghandwerker@...
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 9:29 AM
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Architecture Questions

                  Greetins all,
                   
                  I have a question reguarding the architectural strength of wood. I am attempting to span a 24ft length for a Saxon A frame pavilion. I am thinking of doing this by using 10ft preassure treated 4x4s for the uprights at each end of the tent. Then I am planning on using two preasure treated 12ft 4x4s as the cross beam by connecting them end to end with a 3ft 1/4inch thich steel cuff bolted in place. Do you guys think that the steal cuff will hold the 4X4s, or am I building a death trap?
                   
                  Thanks!
                   
                  Volkahard
                  House Hedgehog

                  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

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                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  Are you talking lag screws or through bolts? I would not recomend any screws in the joint section. They would wear out after 5-6 take downs. Through bolts
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 2, 2007
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                    Are you talking lag screws or through bolts? I would not recomend any
                    screws in the joint section. They would wear out after 5-6 take downs.
                    Through bolts with fender washers on both sides are better though you have
                    to make sure the head and nut ends do not touch canvas.

                    James Cunningham

                    < I'd use lag bolts >
                  • tracystar2000
                    Greetings unto the group! My name is Malaki Dracwin and I am new to this group. Please forgive this rather lengthy first post. I haven t yet gotten to read all
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 3, 2007
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                      Greetings unto the group!

                      My name is Malaki Dracwin and I am new to this group. Please forgive
                      this rather lengthy first post.

                      I haven't yet gotten to read all of the past posts, but this pavilion
                      pole issue is one that I have dealt with before. Too often these
                      things are over-engeneered. In my experience, lighter is better. When
                      my wife and I were first married we purchased a double bell wedge
                      from Panther. It has only a 5' ridgepole, but the two poles that went
                      from the ends of the ridge, although only 1.25" in diameter, took up
                      a LOT of floor space. To remedy this I built a new ridgepole of
                      mahogany (light-weight and strong) and set it so that one of its
                      rounded corners (square cross section) fit into the top of the ridge.
                      I then drilled four holes for upright poles that matched the angle of
                      the sides of the tent, which I reinforced by gluing in steel tubing
                      within which the all thread of the poles would slide, preventing
                      undue wear and tear. The pole set-up resembled the frame for a swing
                      set. This works especially well in the high winds of Ansteorra.

                      A few years later we purchased a large pavilion from Tent Masters,
                      measuring about 10' x 20' at its base. With the ridge pole (2" x 2" x
                      8') set in on top of two 1.25" diameter poles, the pavilion stood
                      well enough but we once again found ourselves with the pole problem
                      in the most inconvenient of places.

                      While studying architecture I became fascinated with the concept of
                      the compression ring. Such a ring is used in Mongolian gers (yurts)
                      in the form of a very long, woven belt that girdles the top of the
                      lattice, keeping the center ring and rafter poles from pushing it
                      outwards. I noticed that our large pavilion already had a compression
                      ring of sorts in the guise of the drip flap, which was reinforced
                      with heavy, woven cord. This sparked an idea.

                      I made a ridgepole of laminated mahogany (2" x 2") with the two holes
                      for the all thread of the vertical poles. These were specifically for
                      pitching the tent. The ends of the ridgepole had a horizontal double
                      hole in each end. Into these double holes went a piece of 1/4" steel
                      wire bent into the shape of a Y, the base being doubled and therefore
                      would keep the Y from twisting in the hole. Once the pavilion was
                      pitched (with the Y's in place) a rafter pole would be put into
                      place. Each rafter pole had a 1/4" hole in the top end and a screw
                      eye in the bottom end. Because my parameter poles are all 1.25" dowel
                      rod (as straight of grain as possible) with 1/4" all-thread glued
                      into the top end for the rope, all one had to do was to stab the arm
                      of the Y into the hole of the rafter pole, remove the rope from that
                      corresponding corner pole, slip the screw eye onto the all thread and
                      replace the rope, making sure that the drip flap compression ring was
                      well seated over the pole (the edges of the poll ends should be
                      rounded off to prevent wear on the canvas). Do this to all four
                      corners and you have a pavilion with no center poles (a rather
                      magical feeling when one walks in).

                      I realize that this sounds pretty flimsy, but I never had a problem
                      with it coming down on my head, even during near-tornadic weather. We
                      have even had a slight snowfall on the tent without any form of
                      mishap. Admittedly it is a bit of fun to set up, but it works.

                      Good luck with yours!
                      Malaki
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