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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

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  • Bruce S. R. Lee
    Your description of How to burn down your workshop without trying is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various woodworking mags.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
      Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
      is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
      woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
      rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
      soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
      it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
      outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
      in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
      encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
      smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
      critical temperature.

      I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
      due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
      heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
      to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
      oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
      and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.

      regards
      Brusi of Orkney
      At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
      >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
      >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
      >
      >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
      >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
      >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
      >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
      >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
      >wrong?
    • leaking pen
      i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste not, want not. ... -- That which yields isn t always weak.
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
        i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
        not, want not.

        On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
        > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
        > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
        > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
        > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
        > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
        > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
        > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
        > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
        > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
        > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
        > critical temperature.
        >
        > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
        > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
        > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
        > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
        > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
        > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
        >
        > regards
        > Brusi of Orkney
        > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
        > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
        > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
        > >
        > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
        > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
        > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
        > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
        > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
        > >wrong?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        That which yields isn't always weak.
      • Bill McNutt
        I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007

          I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

           


          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of leaking pen
          Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

           

          i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
          not, want not.

          On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific. net.au> wrote:

          > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
          > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
          > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
          > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
          > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
          > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
          > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
          > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
          > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
          > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
          > critical temperature.
          >
          > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
          > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
          > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
          > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
          > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
          > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
          >
          > regards
          > Brusi of Orkney
          > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
          > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
          > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
          > >
          > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
          > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
          > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
          > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
          > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
          > >wrong?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          That which yields isn't always weak.

        • leaking pen
          This brings up another mental query I had. Modern boiled oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I ve heard. Period boiled is boiled to
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
            This brings up another mental query I had.   Modern "boiled" oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.  Period boiled is boiled to polymerize, and has a little metal salt.  primarily lead salts or borax it looks like.  Would the extra metal add color to the wood?  Has anyone used homemade true boiled that could comment on color difference?

            On 1/4/07, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

            I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

             


            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
            Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

             

            i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
            not, want not.

            On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
            > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
            > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
            > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
            > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
            > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
            > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
            > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
            > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
            > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
            > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
            > critical temperature.
            >
            > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
            > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
            > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
            > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
            > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
            > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
            >
            > regards
            > Brusi of Orkney
            > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
            > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
            > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
            > >
            > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
            > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
            > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
            > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
            > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
            > >wrong?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            That which yields isn't always weak.




            --
            That which yields isn't always weak.
          • kjworz@comcast.net
            I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
              I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.

              Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of

              http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/

              They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..

              --
              -Chris Schwartz
              Silver Spring, MD

              -------------- Original message ----------------------
              From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
              > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
              > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
              >
              >
              >
              > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
              > not, want not.
              >
              > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
              > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
              > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
              > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
              > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
              > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
              > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
              > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
              > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
              > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
              > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
              > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
              > > critical temperature.
              > >
              > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
              > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
              > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
              > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
              > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
              > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
              > >
              > > regards
              > > Brusi of Orkney
              > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
              > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
              > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
              > > >
              > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
              > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
              > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
              > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
              > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
              > > >wrong?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > That which yields isn't always weak.
              >
              >
              >
            • leaking pen
              ooo, i like the burnishing idea. and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
                ooo, i like the burnishing idea.

                and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal
                salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.

                hmm. will find out when i experiment. need to pick up several pounds
                of flax seed, and something to grind them in...

                On 1/4/07, kjworz@... <kjworz@...> wrote:
                >
                > I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.
                >
                > Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of
                >
                > http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/
                >
                > They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..
                >
                > --
                > -Chris Schwartz
                > Silver Spring, MD
                >
                > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                > From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                > > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                > > not, want not.
                > >
                > > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
                > > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
                > > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                > > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                > > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                > > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                > > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                > > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                > > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                > > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                > > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                > > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                > > > critical temperature.
                > > >
                > > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                > > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                > > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                > > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                > > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                > > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                > > >
                > > > regards
                > > > Brusi of Orkney
                > > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                > > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                > > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                > > > >
                > > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                > > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                > > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                > > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                > > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                > > > >wrong?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > --
                > > That which yields isn't always weak.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                That which yields isn't always weak.
              • Avery Austringer
                ... I m not sure what qualifies as a lot . I found a reference to 0.33% copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don t know that any
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
                  >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                  >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.

                  I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                  copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                  know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                  exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.

                  I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                  weight of the metal itself to total weight.

                  Avery
                • leaking pen
                  for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual number of particles. and i mean in comparison. ... -- That which yields isn t always
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
                    for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual
                    number of particles.

                    and i mean in comparison.

                    On 1/5/07, Avery Austringer <avery1415@...> wrote:
                    > >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                    > >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                    > copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                    > know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                    > exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                    > weight of the metal itself to total weight.
                    >
                    > Avery
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    That which yields isn't always weak.
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