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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

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  • Mark Schuldenfrei
    ... Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before attempting this, please. Tibor
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
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      leaking pen wrote:
      > Me thinks im going to give a try at producing this.

      Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before
      attempting this, please.

      Tibor
    • leaking pen
      ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles. also, my understanding is that
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
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        ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
        time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.

        also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
        its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
        combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
        that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
        its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
        wrong?

        On 1/3/07, Mark Schuldenfrei <mark@...> wrote:
        > leaking pen wrote:
        > > Me thinks im going to give a try at producing this.
        >
        > Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before
        > attempting this, please.
        >
        > Tibor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        That which yields isn't always weak.
      • Bruce S. R. Lee
        Your description of How to burn down your workshop without trying is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various woodworking mags.
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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          Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
          is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
          woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
          rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
          soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
          it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
          outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
          in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
          encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
          smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
          critical temperature.

          I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
          due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
          heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
          to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
          oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
          and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.

          regards
          Brusi of Orkney
          At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
          >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
          >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
          >
          >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
          >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
          >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
          >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
          >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
          >wrong?
        • leaking pen
          i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste not, want not. ... -- That which yields isn t always weak.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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            i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
            not, want not.

            On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
            > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
            > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
            > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
            > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
            > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
            > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
            > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
            > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
            > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
            > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
            > critical temperature.
            >
            > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
            > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
            > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
            > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
            > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
            > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
            >
            > regards
            > Brusi of Orkney
            > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
            > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
            > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
            > >
            > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
            > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
            > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
            > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
            > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
            > >wrong?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            That which yields isn't always weak.
          • Bill McNutt
            I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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              I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

               


              From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of leaking pen
              Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

               

              i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
              not, want not.

              On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific. net.au> wrote:

              > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
              > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
              > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
              > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
              > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
              > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
              > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
              > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
              > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
              > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
              > critical temperature.
              >
              > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
              > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
              > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
              > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
              > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
              > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
              >
              > regards
              > Brusi of Orkney
              > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
              > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
              > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
              > >
              > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
              > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
              > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
              > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
              > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
              > >wrong?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              That which yields isn't always weak.

            • leaking pen
              This brings up another mental query I had. Modern boiled oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I ve heard. Period boiled is boiled to
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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                This brings up another mental query I had.   Modern "boiled" oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.  Period boiled is boiled to polymerize, and has a little metal salt.  primarily lead salts or borax it looks like.  Would the extra metal add color to the wood?  Has anyone used homemade true boiled that could comment on color difference?

                On 1/4/07, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

                I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

                 


                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

                 

                i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                not, want not.

                On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
                > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                > critical temperature.
                >
                > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                >
                > regards
                > Brusi of Orkney
                > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                > >
                > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                > >wrong?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                That which yields isn't always weak.




                --
                That which yields isn't always weak.
              • kjworz@comcast.net
                I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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                  I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.

                  Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of

                  http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/

                  They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..

                  --
                  -Chris Schwartz
                  Silver Spring, MD

                  -------------- Original message ----------------------
                  From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                  > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                  > not, want not.
                  >
                  > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
                  > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
                  > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                  > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                  > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                  > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                  > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                  > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                  > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                  > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                  > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                  > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                  > > critical temperature.
                  > >
                  > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                  > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                  > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                  > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                  > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                  > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                  > >
                  > > regards
                  > > Brusi of Orkney
                  > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                  > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                  > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                  > > >
                  > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                  > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                  > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                  > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                  > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                  > > >wrong?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > That which yields isn't always weak.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • leaking pen
                  ooo, i like the burnishing idea. and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
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                    ooo, i like the burnishing idea.

                    and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal
                    salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.

                    hmm. will find out when i experiment. need to pick up several pounds
                    of flax seed, and something to grind them in...

                    On 1/4/07, kjworz@... <kjworz@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.
                    >
                    > Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of
                    >
                    > http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/
                    >
                    > They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..
                    >
                    > --
                    > -Chris Schwartz
                    > Silver Spring, MD
                    >
                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                    > From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                    > > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > _____
                    > >
                    > > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    > > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                    > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                    > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                    > > not, want not.
                    > >
                    > > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
                    > > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
                    > > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                    > > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                    > > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                    > > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                    > > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                    > > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                    > > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                    > > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                    > > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                    > > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                    > > > critical temperature.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                    > > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                    > > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                    > > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                    > > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                    > > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                    > > >
                    > > > regards
                    > > > Brusi of Orkney
                    > > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                    > > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                    > > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                    > > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                    > > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                    > > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                    > > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                    > > > >wrong?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > That which yields isn't always weak.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    That which yields isn't always weak.
                  • Avery Austringer
                    ... I m not sure what qualifies as a lot . I found a reference to 0.33% copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don t know that any
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
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                      >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                      >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.

                      I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                      copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                      know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                      exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.

                      I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                      weight of the metal itself to total weight.

                      Avery
                    • leaking pen
                      for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual number of particles. and i mean in comparison. ... -- That which yields isn t always
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
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                        for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual
                        number of particles.

                        and i mean in comparison.

                        On 1/5/07, Avery Austringer <avery1415@...> wrote:
                        > >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                        > >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.
                        >
                        > I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                        > copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                        > know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                        > exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.
                        >
                        > I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                        > weight of the metal itself to total weight.
                        >
                        > Avery
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        That which yields isn't always weak.
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