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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

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  • leaking pen
    Thanks. actually, doing a little more digging, ive found a 15th century refference from china that showed extraction of oil was done by boiling, drying,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
      Thanks. actually, doing a little more digging, ive found a 15th
      century refference from china that showed extraction of oil was done
      by boiling, drying, crushing, and then mixing with very hot water and
      squeezing the dough until the oil rose. so basically what you said.
      Also, it is long term boiled with a metal salt still, borx in this
      case. BUUUT, its still just a little, and boiled, as opposed to
      todays, which is a lot of metal, and raw.

      Me thinks im going to give a try at producing this.

      On 1/3/07, Avery Austringer <avery1415@...> wrote:
      > > Does anyone have any recipes on how to extract linseed oil from flax?
      > > iI've found a refference that states that boiled linseed oil was
      > > originally, not regular cold pressed linseed oil that was boiled, but
      > > linseed oil that was extracted through heat and steam while being
      > > pressed. Can anyone verify this, or have experience extracting oil
      > > from seed themselves?
      >
      > Not heard this before. Assuming this is more or less true, I would
      > tend to believe that large scale extraction using live steam is not on
      > the list of things our honourable ancestors were doing a lot of.
      > However, extraction might have been accomplished by dumping crushed
      > linseed into boiling water and collecting what rose to the top. In
      > fact, the oil might have been a bi-product of the manufature of
      > whatever it is you get when you dump linseed in boiling water. (I have
      > no idea what that is, but I know health food types who eat the stuff.)
      >
      > Of course this is 100% USDA conjecture, but you could try it on the
      > small scale and see what happens. (Note: The vapor over hot linseed
      > oil is flamable. I'm not going to guess at the specifics, just urge
      > caution.) If you do it in the right kind of pot you might even get
      > some of that "metalic drying agent" phenomenon free of charge.
      >
      > Avery
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      That which yields isn't always weak.
    • Mark Schuldenfrei
      ... Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before attempting this, please. Tibor
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
        leaking pen wrote:
        > Me thinks im going to give a try at producing this.

        Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before
        attempting this, please.

        Tibor
      • leaking pen
        ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles. also, my understanding is that
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 3, 2007
          ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
          time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.

          also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
          its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
          combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
          that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
          its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
          wrong?

          On 1/3/07, Mark Schuldenfrei <mark@...> wrote:
          > leaking pen wrote:
          > > Me thinks im going to give a try at producing this.
          >
          > Be very aware of the extreme fire dangers before
          > attempting this, please.
          >
          > Tibor
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          That which yields isn't always weak.
        • Bruce S. R. Lee
          Your description of How to burn down your workshop without trying is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various woodworking mags.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
            Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
            is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
            woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
            rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
            soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
            it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
            outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
            in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
            encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
            smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
            critical temperature.

            I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
            due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
            heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
            to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
            oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
            and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.

            regards
            Brusi of Orkney
            At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
            >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
            >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
            >
            >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
            >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
            >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
            >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
            >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
            >wrong?
          • leaking pen
            i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste not, want not. ... -- That which yields isn t always weak.
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
              i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
              not, want not.

              On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
              > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
              > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
              > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
              > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
              > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
              > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
              > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
              > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
              > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
              > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
              > critical temperature.
              >
              > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
              > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
              > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
              > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
              > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
              > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
              >
              > regards
              > Brusi of Orkney
              > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
              > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
              > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
              > >
              > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
              > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
              > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
              > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
              > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
              > >wrong?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              That which yields isn't always weak.
            • Bill McNutt
              I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. _____ From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007

                I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

                 


                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

                 

                i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                not, want not.

                On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific. net.au> wrote:

                > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                > critical temperature.
                >
                > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                >
                > regards
                > Brusi of Orkney
                > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                > >
                > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                > >wrong?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                That which yields isn't always weak.

              • leaking pen
                This brings up another mental query I had. Modern boiled oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I ve heard. Period boiled is boiled to
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
                  This brings up another mental query I had.   Modern "boiled" oil is really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.  Period boiled is boiled to polymerize, and has a little metal salt.  primarily lead salts or borax it looks like.  Would the extra metal add color to the wood?  Has anyone used homemade true boiled that could comment on color difference?

                  On 1/4/07, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

                  I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment. 

                   


                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                  Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction

                   

                  i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                  not, want not.

                  On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@...> wrote:
                  > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                  > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                  > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                  > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                  > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                  > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                  > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                  > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                  > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                  > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                  > critical temperature.
                  >
                  > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                  > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                  > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                  > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                  > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                  > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                  >
                  > regards
                  > Brusi of Orkney
                  > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                  > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                  > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                  > >
                  > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                  > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                  > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                  > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                  > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                  > >wrong?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  That which yields isn't always weak.




                  --
                  That which yields isn't always weak.
                • kjworz@comcast.net
                  I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
                    I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.

                    Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of

                    http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/

                    They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..

                    --
                    -Chris Schwartz
                    Silver Spring, MD

                    -------------- Original message ----------------------
                    From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                    > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                    > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                    > not, want not.
                    >
                    > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
                    > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
                    > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                    > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                    > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                    > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                    > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                    > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                    > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                    > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                    > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                    > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                    > > critical temperature.
                    > >
                    > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                    > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                    > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                    > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                    > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                    > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                    > >
                    > > regards
                    > > Brusi of Orkney
                    > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                    > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                    > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                    > > >
                    > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                    > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                    > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                    > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                    > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                    > > >wrong?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
                    > That which yields isn't always weak.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • leaking pen
                    ooo, i like the burnishing idea. and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 4, 2007
                      ooo, i like the burnishing idea.

                      and they say no metal driers at all? but... a small amount of metal
                      salt is required as a catalyst to polymerize. i thought.

                      hmm. will find out when i experiment. need to pick up several pounds
                      of flax seed, and something to grind them in...

                      On 1/4/07, kjworz@... <kjworz@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I save my dried-finish rags after drying them flat on a non-flamable surface. Once hard they are safe, and the finish encrusted hard rag makes an excellent burnisher of the original piece that I prefer to fine sandpaper between coats.
                      >
                      > Someone had a question on 'real' period style linseed oil availability. This is the only source for same I know of
                      >
                      > http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/
                      >
                      > They also make a varnish made of natural resins that might be more authentic than polyurethane..
                      >
                      > --
                      > -Chris Schwartz
                      > Silver Spring, MD
                      >
                      > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                      > From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
                      > > I hang them from a trashcan in a supervised environment.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of leaking pen
                      > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:58 AM
                      > > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Oil Extraction
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > i would think youd prefer to wash teh rags instead. you know, waste
                      > > not, want not.
                      > >
                      > > On 1/4/07, Bruce S. R. Lee <bsrlee2@pacific.
                      > > <mailto:bsrlee2%40pacific.net.au> net.au> wrote:
                      > > > Your description of 'How to burn down your workshop without trying'
                      > > > is pretty much spot-on from the descriptions I have read in various
                      > > > woodworking mags. Treated oils (Linseed, tung, 'Danish') + bunched up
                      > > > rags = fire. The recommended procedure is to spread out each finish
                      > > > soaked rag by itself, outside on a non flammable surface & wait until
                      > > > it is dry & hard, then dispose of in a metal trashcan that is also
                      > > > outside, water bath is optional. The idea is that the oxidizing oils
                      > > > in the finish do generate the heat, and the rag acts as the wick to
                      > > > encourage the oil into a full fledged flame rather than a smokey
                      > > > smoulder, but if its spread out the heat disperses before reaching a
                      > > > critical temperature.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think the worry over fumes from the heated seed/oil mass is more
                      > > > due to the inability of the home DIY'er being able to monitor the
                      > > > heat adequately, and accidentally getting the whole thing hot enough
                      > > > to produce OTHER volatiles, not just the desired linseed or whatever
                      > > > oil, something that should never happen in a modern extraction plant,
                      > > > and probably rarely happened in our 'period' with experienced operators.
                      > > >
                      > > > regards
                      > > > Brusi of Orkney
                      > > > At 08:30 AM 4/01/2007, you wrote:
                      > > > >ohh, i am. im a biochemist. i do hexane chemical extractions all the
                      > > > >time, as well as occasional ether and other volatiles.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >also, my understanding is that the oil vapors arent super flammable,
                      > > > >its that the soaked rags will heat while oxidating to the point of
                      > > > >combustion. looking at the linolean linolic acid composition, id say
                      > > > >that its a lamp oil. that is, requires a wick to burn, wont burn on
                      > > > >its own. and ive seen no mention of the vapors being flammable. am i
                      > > > >wrong?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > That which yields isn't always weak.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      That which yields isn't always weak.
                    • Avery Austringer
                      ... I m not sure what qualifies as a lot . I found a reference to 0.33% copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don t know that any
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
                        >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                        >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.

                        I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                        copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                        know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                        exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.

                        I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                        weight of the metal itself to total weight.

                        Avery
                      • leaking pen
                        for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual number of particles. and i mean in comparison. ... -- That which yields isn t always
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 5, 2007
                          for a solution, its likely a molar percentage. ie, not weight, actual
                          number of particles.

                          and i mean in comparison.

                          On 1/5/07, Avery Austringer <avery1415@...> wrote:
                          > >This brings up another mental query I had. Modern "boiled" oil is
                          > >really not boiled, with a LOT of metal dryers, I've heard.
                          >
                          > I'm not sure what qualifies as "a lot". I found a reference to 0.33%
                          > copper, cobalt, zinc or maganese napthenate in linseed oil, but I don't
                          > know that any of these metals produce strongly colored salts when
                          > exposed to things in wood the way iron and tanic acid do.
                          >
                          > I'm not sure that the 0.33% is total weight to total weight or the
                          > weight of the metal itself to total weight.
                          >
                          > Avery
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          That which yields isn't always weak.
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