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Re: Re: [medievalsawdust] Clamped-front Chests

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  • Rob Hicks
    A weak weak, net surf suggests that the M&T in Stonehenge was put place during it s 3rd phase at Sarsen Circle. That would put M&T joinery somewhere between
    Message 1 of 15 , May 28, 2003
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      A weak weak, net surf suggests that the M&T in
      Stonehenge was put place during it's 3rd phase at
      Sarsen Circle. That would put M&T joinery somewhere
      between 1500 and 2300 BC(E).

      Dunstan


      --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
      > > More astonishing is the assertion that "The
      > invention of the
      > > mortice and tenon joint (about 1450) enabled the
      > development of
      > > "joyned" furniture..." Furniture was made with
      > M&T joints long
      > > before 1450. That's about when frame-and-panel
      > joinery was developed,
      > > which may be what they intended to refer to.
      >
      > Let's hope! I've seen M&T joinery on Egyptian
      > furniture and the
      > lintels on Stonehenge are held in place with
      > dome-shaped M&T joints.
      >
      > Ulrich
      >
      >
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    • Dan Baker
      also known as a hutch style chest where horizontal borads are clamped between upright legs, usually with a pinned tounge and groove joint. If that helps. --
      Message 2 of 15 , May 28, 2003
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        also known as a hutch style chest where horizontal borads are "clamped"
        between upright legs, usually with a pinned tounge and groove joint. If
        that helps.



        --
        YIS,

        Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
        Privateer to the Midrealm

        Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
        ...Take time to dance in the rain...




        >From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
        >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        >To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Clamped-front Chests
        >Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 04:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
        >
        >
        >--- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
        > > Hi all,
        > > Anyone know of any Web sites that discuss
        > > clamped-front chests?
        > >
        >
        >
        >Having done most of my research just
        >looking at pictures and manuscripts...
        >
        >Huh? Clamped-front?
        >
        > or am I just using different
        >terminology...?
        >
        >Gotta picture?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >=====
        >Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
        > Aude Aliquid Dignum
        > ' Dare Something Worthy '
        >
        >__________________________________
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      • Tim Bray
        ... Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered furniture... More relevant to their article would be all the 12th - 14th century furniture made with M&T
        Message 3 of 15 , May 28, 2003
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          >A weak weak, net surf suggests that the M&T in
          >Stonehenge was put place during it's 3rd phase at
          >Sarsen Circle. That would put M&T joinery somewhere
          >between 1500 and 2300 BC(E).

          Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered "furniture..."

          More relevant to their article would be all the 12th - 14th century
          furniture made with M&T joints. English writers need to get out of England
          now and again. Even within England, while there isn't much moveable
          furniture from before 1450, there are 14th century choir-stalls, and of
          course that remarkable 14th century canopy over the Cathedra in
          Exeter. All pegged M&T joinery.

          It would be quite remarkable for a 13th or 14th century furniture-maker to
          sit inside a building with visibly M&T joinery everywhere exposed, and
          _not_ make the connection!

          Cheers,
          Colin


          Albion Works
          Furniture and Accessories
          For the Medievalist!
          www.albionworks.net
          www.albionworks.com
        • Danial Roy
          Viking Age furniture is M & T you can see examples in Viking to Crusader ... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam?
          Message 4 of 15 , May 29, 2003
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            Viking Age furniture is M & T you can see examples in "Viking to Crusader"


            >From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
            >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            >To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: Re: [medievalsawdust] Clamped-front Chests
            >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:18:22 -0700
            >
            >
            > >A weak weak, net surf suggests that the M&T in
            > >Stonehenge was put place during it's 3rd phase at
            > >Sarsen Circle. That would put M&T joinery somewhere
            > >between 1500 and 2300 BC(E).
            >
            >Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered "furniture..."
            >
            >More relevant to their article would be all the 12th - 14th century
            >furniture made with M&T joints. English writers need to get out of England
            >now and again. Even within England, while there isn't much moveable
            >furniture from before 1450, there are 14th century choir-stalls, and of
            >course that remarkable 14th century canopy over the Cathedra in
            >Exeter. All pegged M&T joinery.
            >
            >It would be quite remarkable for a 13th or 14th century furniture-maker to
            >sit inside a building with visibly M&T joinery everywhere exposed, and
            >_not_ make the connection!
            >
            >Cheers,
            >Colin
            >
            >
            >Albion Works
            >Furniture and Accessories
            >For the Medievalist!
            >www.albionworks.net
            >www.albionworks.com
            >
            >
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >

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          • rmhowe
            ... The Mortise and Tenon joints used on Stonehenge were somewhat semi-circular domes and holes if I recall. Fairly shallow. Nothing on the range of the
            Message 5 of 15 , May 29, 2003
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              Tim Bray wrote:

              > >A weak weak, net surf suggests that the M&T in
              > >Stonehenge was put place during it's 3rd phase at
              > >Sarsen Circle. That would put M&T joinery somewhere
              > >between 1500 and 2300 BC(E).

              The 'Mortise and Tenon' joints used on Stonehenge were somewhat semi-circular
              domes and holes if I recall. Fairly shallow. Nothing on the range of the
              stonework
              done by the Greeks and Romans where channels and holes were carved at the
              joints of important lintel stones with a wrought iron staple inserted and lead
              poured
              and pounded in around it in the holes. Since the Ancient Britons at that time
              were
              basically in the Bronze Age [with golden jewellery too] their metal tools at that
              time
              were not hard enough to shape the hard sarsen blue stones to accurate mortise and
              tenons.
              With a hammer stone though they could make depressions and raised 'bumps'.
              This still puts them far behind the stoneworkers of Peru who hammer-stoned stone
              joints in immense rocks so fine you cannot insert a knife between them.

              They've found six or seven more burials since the Archer from the Alps buried
              there
              recently at Stonehenge. The Golden Archer with all the gold artefacts. They
              determined
              where he came from by the percentage of oxygen isotopes in his teeth. Apparently
              they change with altitude.

              > Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered "furniture..."

              Well, it would make a seat for the Giant portrayed on the Chalk hill.
              The one with the sizable erection.
              I want to say the Cearne Giant is the right name for him.
              Since he is holding a club, could he be the progenitor of all
              stickjocks/rhinohides as well?

              Incidentally Real Dovetails were found used on the game boxes in King
              Tutankhamun's tomb.
              I have close-up full color pictures of them.

              And the Kubbesthuls of the Scandinavians [made by carving out the upside down
              base
              of a good sized tree] were in use by the Ancient Etruscans. Very elaborate ones
              have
              been found in their tombs. One was so highly decorated it was considered a high
              status
              throne. One I have seen recently is in a Time-Life book on the Ancient Etruscans
              currently being sold out by Barnes and Noble for about $6.

              Magnus

              > More relevant to their article would be all the 12th - 14th century
              > furniture made with M&T joints. English writers need to get out of England
              > now and again. Even within England, while there isn't much moveable
              > furniture from before 1450, there are 14th century choir-stalls, and of
              > course that remarkable 14th century canopy over the Cathedra in
              > Exeter. All pegged M&T joinery.
              >
              > It would be quite remarkable for a 13th or 14th century furniture-maker to
              > sit inside a building with visibly M&T joinery everywhere exposed, and
              > _not_ make the connection!
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Colin
              >
              > Albion Works
              > Furniture and Accessories
              > For the Medievalist!
              > www.albionworks.net
              > www.albionworks.com
              >
            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              ... Well, if you really want to know... I was watching ( and poking fun of ) the New Yankee Workshop with Duke Edmund and a squire brother of mine. Norm was
              Message 6 of 15 , May 29, 2003
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                >
                > Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered
                > "furniture..."
                >

                Well, if you really want to know...

                I was watching ( and poking fun of ) the
                New Yankee Workshop with Duke Edmund and
                a squire brother of mine.

                Norm was building a workbench.

                We figured that if Norm had to have a workbench
                to build a workbench, it was impossible to
                build a workbench without a workbench.

                So... Somewhere in prehistory there was the
                first workbench.

                Stonehenge.

                If you are wondering why it's so big....

                Remember that there are stories of Irish
                giants that helped build stonehenge.

                My research has led me to conclude that they
                really weren't building stonehenge but using it
                to build other things. The confusion is a result
                of no one being tall enough to see the top of the
                bench to see what was being worked on.

                As to finding more evidence to support this
                theory. I feel that it's simply a occurance
                of a phenomena that occurs today in workshops
                around the world. You ghet busy working on
                something, you turn around and your pencil
                is gone....

                Think about how much could dissapear over
                a span of 1000 years...

                One of these days I'll get around to publishing
                my theory, and you can all say 'I knew him when...'



                =====
                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '

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              • rmhowe
                ... I keep wondering when Norm s finally going to learn how to cut tenons correctly. This guy has seriously messed up tons of people with his willy-nilly,
                Message 7 of 15 , May 31, 2003
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                  Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:
                  >>Of course, Stonehenge can hardly be considered
                  >>"furniture..."
                  >
                  > Well, if you really want to know...
                  >
                  > I was watching ( and poking fun of ) the
                  > New Yankee Workshop with Duke Edmund and
                  > a squire brother of mine.

                  I keep wondering when Norm's finally going to learn how to
                  cut tenons correctly. This guy has seriously messed up
                  tons of people with his willy-nilly, sometimes contradictory
                  advice. Not that he's not getting better - because he is.

                  On the other hand there has got to be a WAREHOUSE for all
                  the tools he and his boss have donated to them. That is the
                  Producer's shop, not Norm's by the way. The time they put him
                  on the cover of Fine Woodworking some of the readership had
                  a stroke. I felt sorry for him reading the next two issues.

                  Granted, he's better than your average carpenter, probably
                  95% of them, at least all the goobers but a couple I worked around.
                  The average one couldn't operate a tablesaw safely.
                  I've seen them stand sideways to the saw with one hand front
                  and back to guide the workpiece through. Lots of accidents.

                  I've worked in shops with thirty or more men and we didn't
                  have the range of tools these guys get free. No copy lathe(s).
                  No twenty-five routers. No jointing or $500 dovetail jigs donated.
                  That was for a 30,000 person plus university woodshop.
                  I did the custom work, designs, estimates, and maintenance on
                  the equipment. Then my muscular/nervous system screwed up permanently.

                  The funniest episode lately was the guy who sent in a $150
                  aluminum jig to drill shelf peg holes with a router, probably
                  had patented the thing, and Norm made a wooden copy of it on
                  the show and is probably selling the plans. No doubt he was
                  envisioning selling hundreds of them minimum, the inventor
                  that is. I bet he turned beet red. Maybe looking into sueing.

                  Or as Roy Underhill would put it "Let me sell you a measured
                  Drawring" That's a Bahston accent by the way. Garbage always
                  sounds like gobbage, which sounds to me like left overs from
                  an SCA feast. Tomorrow's breakfast.

                  > Norm was building a workbench.

                  You mean the Tool Hutch? That was rich. You'd have to
                  be rich. It was a thousand dollar project. Space for
                  twenty drills.

                  > We figured that if Norm had to have a workbench
                  > to build a workbench, it was impossible to
                  > build a workbench without a workbench.

                  That's quite logical.

                  > So... Somewhere in prehistory there was the
                  > first workbench.
                  >
                  > Stonehenge.

                  Good story followed. Thanks.

                  Magnus, former woodworking professional.
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