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Re: [medievalsawdust] X-chairs Cheap!!

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  • Adam MacDonald
    Good evening, folks! That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by
    Message 1 of 16 , May 7, 2003
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      Good evening, folks!

      That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira
      Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by me - Sasha
      (Mykola Shlahetka). Here's some pertinent info for the group:

      Post message: MedievalEncampments@yahoogroups.com

      Shortcut URL to this page:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/

      We're nearly 900 souls (and growing daily) - some of the worthies on *this*
      list also play over at mine (hi Magnus, hi Colin!). The focus is on
      improving the camp aesthetic (whatever that means for you) furniture,
      pavilions, packing strategies, weatherproofing, et cetera....

      Stop on by!

      Sasha
      Owner - Crescent Horde Tent Company - specializing in non-Mongol yurtas

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] X-chairs Cheap!!


      > If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments
      > list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons
      > very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
      > day once by hand.
      >
      > two questions...
      >
      > Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?
      >
      > and ( just in case I't something I haven't
      > thought of ) how do 'you' do tenons on the
      > table saw.
      >
      > I've done it a couple of differnt ways,
      > I'm curious how you do it....
      >
      >
      >
      > =====
      > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
      > Aude Aliquid Dignum
      > ' Dare Something Worthy '
      >
      > __________________________________
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
      > http://search.yahoo.com
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
    • stefan_of_kiel
      Hello Colin, I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture. I ve made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but they get
      Message 2 of 16 , May 12, 2003
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        Hello Colin,

        I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

        I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
        they get loose quickly and wobble. I believe you have a picture on
        your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
        down and your pin passes through side to side. Last night I was
        working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
        top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
        seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
        pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
        larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
        wobbling. The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
        5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long. I didn't cut a shoulder
        for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin. Once the
        mortise was cut in the leg, I then cut a 1/4" mortise in the tenon
        from top to bottom. Having the mortise go straight through and using
        an wedge shaped pin meant that only one small spot of the pin was
        contacting the instide of the mortise. I then took out more material
        to make the mortise angled and I recut my pin to match the angle and
        keep it short enough to stay below the tabletop when in place. Now I
        have a lot of contact in the mortise which puts pressure on the top
        and bottom of the tennon. This removed most of the wobble. There is
        still a little side to side wiggle, but I will probably glue small
        blocks jsut below the base of the tenon to act as shoulders and that
        should reduce that movement.

        I'll try to post some pics on my webpage this evening.
        http://www.dwarvenaxe.com The link will be in the Woodworks
        section. Assuming this test works successfully, I'll be fixing or
        replacing my existing trestles to this design.

        If someone else tries this or sees an obvious issue this this design,
        please let me know.

        Stefan



        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bray <tbray@m...> wrote:
        >
        > >Who has made the 'sawhorse' style trestle tables?
        >
        > I have made some, in a knockdown style.
        >
        > >What angles and sizes did you find worked best?
        > >
        > >Did you make 3 or 4 legged trestles?
        >
        > Mine are tripods. Both the front and back legs are angled, at
        about 4 degrees.
        >
        > >I made a prototype legs from scrap plywood
        > >( 3 legged )
        > >and didn't like the way it came out.
        >
        > I'm not completely satisfied with mine, either. They look nice and
        work
        > well... up to a point. A couple of customers think they are too
        > wobbly. This comes of making them knockdown.
        >
        > I don't think most of the medieval versions were made to come
        apart. Most
        > of them look like they have pretty thick legs, permanently joined
        to the
        > horizontal support. This would be a lot sturdier, but almost
        impossible to
        > pack for travel.
        >
        > I'm still trying to solve this problem: how to make trestles that
        are
        > sturdy and stable, but can be taken apart and packed flat.
        Suggestions
        > welcome!
        >
        > >( My wife found out that
        > >only the poor didn't cover up their tables
        > >with table clothes
        >
        > Yes, which makes documentation of these things extremely
        difficult. 90% of
        > the time, the trestles are hidden by the tablecloth. (Simliar
        problem with
        > beds, btw.) I do have a few details from paintings and
        illuminations; maybe
        > I'll try throwing them onto a Web page so we can all discuss them.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Colin
        >
        >
        > Albion Works
        > Furniture and Accessories
        > For the Medievalist!
        > www.albionworks.net
        > www.albionworks.com
      • Tim Bray
        Stefan, ... Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are especially treasured. ... Yes. ... That s the way my tripod trestles
        Message 3 of 16 , May 13, 2003
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          Stefan,

          >I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

          Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are
          especially treasured.

          >I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
          >they get loose quickly and wobble.

          Yes.

          > I believe you have a picture on
          >your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
          >down and your pin passes through side to side.

          That's the way my tripod trestles were made.

          > Last night I was
          >working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
          >top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
          >seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
          >pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
          >larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
          >wobbling.

          Yes, that's the way I make the bed rail-to-post joint. See the "beds" page
          for a photo.

          >The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
          >5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long.

          This is actually very close to the dimensions of the bed-rail joint! The
          rails are about 7/8 thick, a little over 5" wide, the tenons are 3" wide,
          and the posts are made from 8/4 stock so they are about 1-3/4" thick.

          >I didn't cut a shoulder
          >for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin.

          (I think you mean you didn't cut _cheeks_; there are 1" shoulders on either
          side of the tenon, right?) And it turns out to be unnecessary, I
          think. With 7/8 wide stock the shoulders are sufficient, especially with
          the power of that long wedge.

          Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
          tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
          think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
          there is.

          However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
          that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
          problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

          The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
          it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
          pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
          that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
          bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
          top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
          seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown
          joinery. (Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

          What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
          horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
          mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
          shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
          weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

          Thanks for discussing this. Any more ideas?

          Cheers,
          Colin
          Albion Works
          Furniture and Accessories
          For the Medievalist!
          www.albionworks.net
          www.albionworks.com
        • Stefan von Kiel
          Hello Colin, More thoughts on period style trestle tables... ... I agree. ... I ve been calling the sawhorse trestle a period tressle and the commonly seen
          Message 4 of 16 , May 14, 2003
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            Hello Colin,

            More thoughts on period style trestle tables...

            >Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
            >tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
            >think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
            >there is.

            I agree.

            >However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
            >that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
            >problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

            I've been calling the "sawhorse trestle" a period tressle and the commonly
            seen
            trestle a standard trestle. I made a standard trestle out of 4/4 hickory
            and use it
            as a work table. It is heavy and very sturdy. If there is a better name
            for the two
            types of trestle tables, I'd like to know so I can call it by it's proper
            name.

            >The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
            >it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
            >pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
            >that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
            >bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
            >top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
            >seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown joinery.
            >(Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

            I've seen drawings and illuminations with the horizontal stretcher but
            couldn't
            see a way to make it break down and be sturdy. Maybe if the legs had a
            tenon
            and went into a mortise in the horizontal stretcher, but no way to secure it
            with a pin.

            >What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
            >horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
            >mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
            >shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
            >weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

            For the front leg, I have tried using a triangle with the legs going up the
            sides
            and meeting at the top. I wasn't using a mortis/tenon joint but it would
            have
            worked well. Now I'm cutting a 15 degree angle on both parts of the leg for
            a 30 degree spread. I don't make the top a point. I cut it back so the top
            is
            flat and about 2 " wide. I've used 30 degrees a few times and it seems
            sturdy
            enough.



            Stefan von Kiel
            Dwarven Axe Armoury
            www.dwarvenaxe.com





            ----Original Message Follows----
            From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
            Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: 'sawhorse' trestle tables
            Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:09:53 -0700

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