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Re: [medievalsawdust] X-chairs Cheap!!

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  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
    If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
    Message 1 of 16 , May 7, 2003
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      If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments
      list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons
      very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
      day once by hand.

      two questions...

      Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?

      and ( just in case I't something I haven't
      thought of ) how do 'you' do tenons on the
      table saw.

      I've done it a couple of differnt ways,
      I'm curious how you do it....



      =====
      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '

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    • Scott Lane
      ... I was sure you were on it! It s only one of the best lists around! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/ In Service, Lord Aodhfin Seibert
      Message 2 of 16 , May 7, 2003
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        >Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?
        >Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
        > Aude Aliquid Dignum
        > ' Dare Something Worthy '

        I was sure you were on it! It's only one of the best lists around!

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/

        In Service,
        Lord Aodhfin Seibert
      • Adam MacDonald
        Good evening, folks! That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by
        Message 3 of 16 , May 7, 2003
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          Good evening, folks!

          That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira
          Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by me - Sasha
          (Mykola Shlahetka). Here's some pertinent info for the group:

          Post message: MedievalEncampments@yahoogroups.com

          Shortcut URL to this page:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/

          We're nearly 900 souls (and growing daily) - some of the worthies on *this*
          list also play over at mine (hi Magnus, hi Colin!). The focus is on
          improving the camp aesthetic (whatever that means for you) furniture,
          pavilions, packing strategies, weatherproofing, et cetera....

          Stop on by!

          Sasha
          Owner - Crescent Horde Tent Company - specializing in non-Mongol yurtas

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
          To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:47 PM
          Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] X-chairs Cheap!!


          > If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments
          > list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons
          > very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
          > day once by hand.
          >
          > two questions...
          >
          > Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?
          >
          > and ( just in case I't something I haven't
          > thought of ) how do 'you' do tenons on the
          > table saw.
          >
          > I've done it a couple of differnt ways,
          > I'm curious how you do it....
          >
          >
          >
          > =====
          > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
          > Aude Aliquid Dignum
          > ' Dare Something Worthy '
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
          > http://search.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • stefan_of_kiel
          Hello Colin, I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture. I ve made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but they get
          Message 4 of 16 , May 12, 2003
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            Hello Colin,

            I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

            I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
            they get loose quickly and wobble. I believe you have a picture on
            your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
            down and your pin passes through side to side. Last night I was
            working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
            top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
            seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
            pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
            larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
            wobbling. The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
            5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long. I didn't cut a shoulder
            for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin. Once the
            mortise was cut in the leg, I then cut a 1/4" mortise in the tenon
            from top to bottom. Having the mortise go straight through and using
            an wedge shaped pin meant that only one small spot of the pin was
            contacting the instide of the mortise. I then took out more material
            to make the mortise angled and I recut my pin to match the angle and
            keep it short enough to stay below the tabletop when in place. Now I
            have a lot of contact in the mortise which puts pressure on the top
            and bottom of the tennon. This removed most of the wobble. There is
            still a little side to side wiggle, but I will probably glue small
            blocks jsut below the base of the tenon to act as shoulders and that
            should reduce that movement.

            I'll try to post some pics on my webpage this evening.
            http://www.dwarvenaxe.com The link will be in the Woodworks
            section. Assuming this test works successfully, I'll be fixing or
            replacing my existing trestles to this design.

            If someone else tries this or sees an obvious issue this this design,
            please let me know.

            Stefan



            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bray <tbray@m...> wrote:
            >
            > >Who has made the 'sawhorse' style trestle tables?
            >
            > I have made some, in a knockdown style.
            >
            > >What angles and sizes did you find worked best?
            > >
            > >Did you make 3 or 4 legged trestles?
            >
            > Mine are tripods. Both the front and back legs are angled, at
            about 4 degrees.
            >
            > >I made a prototype legs from scrap plywood
            > >( 3 legged )
            > >and didn't like the way it came out.
            >
            > I'm not completely satisfied with mine, either. They look nice and
            work
            > well... up to a point. A couple of customers think they are too
            > wobbly. This comes of making them knockdown.
            >
            > I don't think most of the medieval versions were made to come
            apart. Most
            > of them look like they have pretty thick legs, permanently joined
            to the
            > horizontal support. This would be a lot sturdier, but almost
            impossible to
            > pack for travel.
            >
            > I'm still trying to solve this problem: how to make trestles that
            are
            > sturdy and stable, but can be taken apart and packed flat.
            Suggestions
            > welcome!
            >
            > >( My wife found out that
            > >only the poor didn't cover up their tables
            > >with table clothes
            >
            > Yes, which makes documentation of these things extremely
            difficult. 90% of
            > the time, the trestles are hidden by the tablecloth. (Simliar
            problem with
            > beds, btw.) I do have a few details from paintings and
            illuminations; maybe
            > I'll try throwing them onto a Web page so we can all discuss them.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Colin
            >
            >
            > Albion Works
            > Furniture and Accessories
            > For the Medievalist!
            > www.albionworks.net
            > www.albionworks.com
          • Tim Bray
            Stefan, ... Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are especially treasured. ... Yes. ... That s the way my tripod trestles
            Message 5 of 16 , May 13, 2003
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              Stefan,

              >I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

              Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are
              especially treasured.

              >I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
              >they get loose quickly and wobble.

              Yes.

              > I believe you have a picture on
              >your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
              >down and your pin passes through side to side.

              That's the way my tripod trestles were made.

              > Last night I was
              >working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
              >top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
              >seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
              >pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
              >larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
              >wobbling.

              Yes, that's the way I make the bed rail-to-post joint. See the "beds" page
              for a photo.

              >The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
              >5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long.

              This is actually very close to the dimensions of the bed-rail joint! The
              rails are about 7/8 thick, a little over 5" wide, the tenons are 3" wide,
              and the posts are made from 8/4 stock so they are about 1-3/4" thick.

              >I didn't cut a shoulder
              >for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin.

              (I think you mean you didn't cut _cheeks_; there are 1" shoulders on either
              side of the tenon, right?) And it turns out to be unnecessary, I
              think. With 7/8 wide stock the shoulders are sufficient, especially with
              the power of that long wedge.

              Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
              tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
              think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
              there is.

              However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
              that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
              problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

              The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
              it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
              pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
              that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
              bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
              top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
              seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown
              joinery. (Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

              What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
              horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
              mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
              shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
              weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

              Thanks for discussing this. Any more ideas?

              Cheers,
              Colin
              Albion Works
              Furniture and Accessories
              For the Medievalist!
              www.albionworks.net
              www.albionworks.com
            • Stefan von Kiel
              Hello Colin, More thoughts on period style trestle tables... ... I agree. ... I ve been calling the sawhorse trestle a period tressle and the commonly seen
              Message 6 of 16 , May 14, 2003
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                Hello Colin,

                More thoughts on period style trestle tables...

                >Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
                >tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
                >think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
                >there is.

                I agree.

                >However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
                >that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
                >problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

                I've been calling the "sawhorse trestle" a period tressle and the commonly
                seen
                trestle a standard trestle. I made a standard trestle out of 4/4 hickory
                and use it
                as a work table. It is heavy and very sturdy. If there is a better name
                for the two
                types of trestle tables, I'd like to know so I can call it by it's proper
                name.

                >The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
                >it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
                >pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
                >that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
                >bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
                >top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
                >seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown joinery.
                >(Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

                I've seen drawings and illuminations with the horizontal stretcher but
                couldn't
                see a way to make it break down and be sturdy. Maybe if the legs had a
                tenon
                and went into a mortise in the horizontal stretcher, but no way to secure it
                with a pin.

                >What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
                >horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
                >mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
                >shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
                >weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

                For the front leg, I have tried using a triangle with the legs going up the
                sides
                and meeting at the top. I wasn't using a mortis/tenon joint but it would
                have
                worked well. Now I'm cutting a 15 degree angle on both parts of the leg for
                a 30 degree spread. I don't make the top a point. I cut it back so the top
                is
                flat and about 2 " wide. I've used 30 degrees a few times and it seems
                sturdy
                enough.



                Stefan von Kiel
                Dwarven Axe Armoury
                www.dwarvenaxe.com





                ----Original Message Follows----
                From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
                Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: 'sawhorse' trestle tables
                Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:09:53 -0700

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