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X-chairs Cheap!!

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  • Tim Bray
    http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=2-1/qid=1052072142/ref=sr_2_1/602-60 03430-9044606?asin=B000083GKI Or, go to fields.com and search for Item # 511170.
    Message 1 of 16 , May 4 11:17 AM
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      http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=2-1/qid=1052072142/ref=sr_2_1/602-60
      03430-9044606?asin=B000083GKI
      Or, go to fields.com and search for Item # 511170. An authentic-looking
      scherenstuhl for $100.

      Guess I won't be making any of these... can't compete with a price like that!

      Cheers,
      Colin


      Albion Works
      Furniture and Accessories
      For the Medievalist!
      www.albionworks.net
      www.albionworks.com
    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      ... http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=2-1/qid=1052072142/ref=sr_2_1/602-60 ... WOW... that s cool... Guess I won t make any either... At $100 I might
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4 3:03 PM
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        --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
        >
        http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=2-1/qid=1052072142/ref=sr_2_1/602-60
        >
        > 03430-9044606?asin=B000083GKI
        > Or, go to fields.com and search for Item # 511170.
        > An authentic-looking
        > scherenstuhl for $100.
        >
        > Guess I won't be making any of these... can't
        > compete with a price like that!
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Colin
        >


        WOW... that's cool...
        Guess I won't make any either...

        At $100 I might just pick up one
        and spend my time making something
        else....

        Just curious, what were you looking
        for when you found these?





        =====
        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '

        __________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
        http://search.yahoo.com
      • Joseph Hayes
        ... I guess that depends on your market. I made one for myself from 1x2 red oak trim and a few hours in the shop. I don t remember the price, but it wasn t
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4 6:23 PM
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          --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
          > Guess I won't be making any of these... can't compete with a price
          > like that!

          I guess that depends on your market. I made one for myself from 1x2
          red oak trim and a few hours in the shop. I don't remember the price,
          but it wasn't anywhere near $100.

          Ulrich


          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
          http://search.yahoo.com
        • Tim Bray
          ... Oh, yes, materials cost would be nowhere near $100. But I m trying to make a living here, so the labor isn t free. I doubt I could make one
          Message 4 of 16 , May 5 9:52 AM
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            >I guess that depends on your market. I made one for myself from 1x2
            >red oak trim and a few hours in the shop. I don't remember the price,
            >but it wasn't anywhere near $100.

            Oh, yes, materials cost would be nowhere near $100. But I'm trying to make
            a living here, so the labor isn't free. I doubt I could make one
            start-to-finish, at the level of finish and detail that I'm happy with,
            fast enough to sell it for $100 and still make a living wage. (I'm
            guessing the people who assemble these are making substantially less than
            USA minimum wage...)

            Cheers,
            Colin


            Albion Works
            Furniture and Accessories
            For the Medievalist!
            www.albionworks.net
            www.albionworks.com
          • Tim Bray
            ... My wife found them in a catalog (Marshall Fields) that we received in the mail. I think they have some link with Amazon. Cheers, Colin Albion Works
            Message 5 of 16 , May 5 9:54 AM
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              >Just curious, what were you looking
              >for when you found these?

              My wife found them in a catalog (Marshall Fields) that we received in the
              mail. I think they have some link with Amazon.

              Cheers,
              Colin


              Albion Works
              Furniture and Accessories
              For the Medievalist!
              www.albionworks.net
              www.albionworks.com
            • rmhowe
              ... Good point. I hadn t thought of starting one with something that simple. I suppose it s because I was used to getting the lumber out of the rough with
              Message 6 of 16 , May 5 2:50 PM
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                Joseph Hayes wrote:
                >
                > --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                > > Guess I won't be making any of these... can't compete with a price
                > > like that!
                >
                > I guess that depends on your market. I made one for myself from 1x2
                > red oak trim and a few hours in the shop. I don't remember the price,
                > but it wasn't anywhere near $100.
                >
                > Ulrich

                Good point. I hadn't thought of starting one with something that
                simple. I suppose it's because I was used to getting the lumber
                out of the rough with large industrial machines. I suppose
                the bottoms might be something a bit wider and the tops made
                from turning squares - with a back slotted in.

                I showed my wife the web-page and the improvement needed
                for most folks, particularly us older ones is back support. If
                she'd wanted one I would have bought it for her. No back? Uh-uh!

                Thanks for sending the page though Tim, I forwarded it on locally.

                Magnus
              • rmhowe
                ... One of my oldest friends spends half of his time these days taking furniture orders (and NC furniture jobs) to China. Used to go to Argentina. There is no
                Message 7 of 16 , May 6 4:16 PM
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                  Tim Bray wrote:
                  >
                  > >I guess that depends on your market. I made one for myself from 1x2
                  > >red oak trim and a few hours in the shop. I don't remember the price,
                  > >but it wasn't anywhere near $100.
                  >
                  > Oh, yes, materials cost would be nowhere near $100. But I'm trying to make
                  > a living here, so the labor isn't free. I doubt I could make one
                  > start-to-finish, at the level of finish and detail that I'm happy with,
                  > fast enough to sell it for $100 and still make a living wage. (I'm
                  > guessing the people who assemble these are making substantially less than
                  > USA minimum wage...)
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Colin

                  One of my oldest friends spends half of his time these days taking
                  furniture orders (and NC furniture jobs) to China. Used to go to
                  Argentina. There is no doubt in my mind that they are probably
                  being made overseas having made furniture for a living as a
                  former shop foreman.

                  Retail is usually double wholesale, which hopefully is double labor cost
                  and materials. Or it was when I did it. Around 1980 one of my 7 hour
                  products usually went for about $400+ retail. We had about thirty six
                  designs I frequently worked up. Some took as long as five days.

                  Having made the jigs to set up that particular stool I could probably
                  do three a day if I had to or possibly more with a thickness sander
                  or more modern self feeding equipment.

                  I was not including finishing in my production estimate for an
                  ordinary shop. A shop I sub-contracted parts for once made oak
                  furniture for ship deck chairs and they simply dipped everything in
                  boiled linseed oil and let it drip over a welded steel sheet tank
                  and cover.

                  If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments list you
                  would find a post by me on how to do tenons very quickly by
                  hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per day once by hand.

                  You could also go the easier route and make the seats out of doweling
                  for the parts other than the seats though. I have seen that done.
                  A Drill Press, some drill & forstner bits, glue, and a bunch of 1x2"s
                  cut to length and tapered where they hit the other leg struts.

                  Of course if you did use dowels for the seat too you would get that
                  lovely grill embossed look. I wonder what it does for cellulite?
                  I mean if you can see panty lines - what's that got to look like? ;)

                  The hard part is all the tenons and -mortises- which modern
                  computer assisted machinery makes somewhat simple. At that point you
                  only need machine operators and sanders/finishers which is where most
                  labor is these days with one or two skilled machine set-up men in
                  the U.S.A. at least. Finishing can be done, and is, on roller
                  platform lines with up to thirty separate people doing specialised parts
                  of it. If you are not doing high-end custom work you cannot compete
                  with factory work. Chinese mainland labor is 1/8th of Taiwan's.

                  Some of their products though are quite nice. For example I bought
                  a fine hardwood (mahogany or something very similar) trestle table
                  and matching trestle seats for about $450 two years ago at a
                  World Market when they were on sale. I don't think I could buy
                  the materials for much less than that here. No particle board anywhere
                  and virtually flawless. Fingerjointed but very hard to see under
                  the uniform finish. Not one knot in it. I think it came from Malaysia.

                  The only happy converse of all this may be that some hardwoods may
                  decrease or stabilize in cost as the demand lessens, although a whole
                  lot of our hardwoods are shipped overseas now.

                  For those who may never have heard of such things there are actual
                  factory ships at sea for long times producing plywood which is then
                  sent back to our markets made out of our trees.
                  These are similar to the whaling ships/fishing ship canneries
                  where everything is done off shore. Usually Japanese, but I
                  imagine they have competition now. My source for this was Woodshop
                  News I think a few years back.

                  This is one reason why veneer is so thin on much of the hardwood
                  plywood you see these days. It used to be about 1/40" thick but
                  is thinning. I've seen some you could see the under-layers or glue
                  through. You really have to be picky and do minimal sanding on this
                  stuff. Some of it I have used had the lovedly scent of dog doo when
                  you cut it too. I don't know what that is exactly they used. I hated
                  it on the rare stuff we bought I encountered it on.

                  If you rub three spread fingers over a sheet you can usually detect
                  voids by ear or feel. Before you buy the clunker. I've sent whole
                  shipments, or a good percentage of them right back to the suppliers.
                  Reputation is everything. Especially when your average job runs into
                  thousands of dollars.

                  Incidentally, before you get caught in this one - most plywood
                  suppliers guarantee squareness on only three corners. Mathematically
                  it doesn't make sense, but sheets being out of square quite a lot
                  are quite common. If you are doing cabinetry and you let one of
                  these things into your cabinet in a central location - you're screwed
                  trying to fix it after the fact. Use a square and compare measurements
                  to oblique corners. I think you will be very surprised.

                  Oversize sheets are not unknown either. This is a good reason to have
                  a table saw that will cut half way through lengthwise [48"+].
                  It's generally best to have your pieces cut between a fence and
                  blade whenever possible. The most accurate tablesaws to have are
                  -outside- or left tilting blades, if you are right handed. The
                  reason is with a blade that tilts - towards the fence - any rise
                  in the material while it is being cut is deducted from your piece.
                  With a left tilt blade you can always press a bit harder down to
                  make it lie flat with the table and true up the edge with a follow
                  up cut.

                  It also helps to have a good straight edge you can rout a square
                  corner to begin with if you find yourself very much out of square.
                  For myself I have long had two aluminum extrusions of about 4 and
                  10 feet, and I have a set of tile setter's straight edges as well
                  I can clamp on and rout to. There is a company called Joint-a-bility
                  that sells these jigs as an alternative to jointing huge boards.
                  It simply is a legged jig that clamps a straight edge down on top
                  of your board and you use a router to run a straight edge or an
                  angled one if you have the bits. Woodshop News generally sells them.

                  Magnus
                • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 7 1:47 PM
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                    If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments
                    list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons
                    very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
                    day once by hand.

                    two questions...

                    Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?

                    and ( just in case I't something I haven't
                    thought of ) how do 'you' do tenons on the
                    table saw.

                    I've done it a couple of differnt ways,
                    I'm curious how you do it....



                    =====
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '

                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                    http://search.yahoo.com
                  • Scott Lane
                    ... I was sure you were on it! It s only one of the best lists around! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/ In Service, Lord Aodhfin Seibert
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 7 8:02 PM
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                      >Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?
                      >Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                      > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      > ' Dare Something Worthy '

                      I was sure you were on it! It's only one of the best lists around!

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/

                      In Service,
                      Lord Aodhfin Seibert
                    • Adam MacDonald
                      Good evening, folks! That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 7 10:59 PM
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                        Good evening, folks!

                        That would be the Medieval Encampments Yahoo group - founded by Dame Mira
                        Silverlock (of Medieval Pavilion Resources fame) and now run by me - Sasha
                        (Mykola Shlahetka). Here's some pertinent info for the group:

                        Post message: MedievalEncampments@yahoogroups.com

                        Shortcut URL to this page:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MedievalEncampments/

                        We're nearly 900 souls (and growing daily) - some of the worthies on *this*
                        list also play over at mine (hi Magnus, hi Colin!). The focus is on
                        improving the camp aesthetic (whatever that means for you) furniture,
                        pavilions, packing strategies, weatherproofing, et cetera....

                        Stop on by!

                        Sasha
                        Owner - Crescent Horde Tent Company - specializing in non-Mongol yurtas

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:47 PM
                        Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] X-chairs Cheap!!


                        > If you were to go back in the Medieval Encampments
                        > list you would find a post by me on how to do tenons
                        > very quickly by hand on a tablesaw. I did hundreds per
                        > day once by hand.
                        >
                        > two questions...
                        >
                        > Medieval Encapments list? Where? How?
                        >
                        > and ( just in case I't something I haven't
                        > thought of ) how do 'you' do tenons on the
                        > table saw.
                        >
                        > I've done it a couple of differnt ways,
                        > I'm curious how you do it....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                        > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                        > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                        >
                        > __________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                        > http://search.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • stefan_of_kiel
                        Hello Colin, I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture. I ve made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but they get
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 12 12:28 PM
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                          Hello Colin,

                          I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

                          I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
                          they get loose quickly and wobble. I believe you have a picture on
                          your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
                          down and your pin passes through side to side. Last night I was
                          working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
                          top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
                          seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
                          pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
                          larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
                          wobbling. The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
                          5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long. I didn't cut a shoulder
                          for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin. Once the
                          mortise was cut in the leg, I then cut a 1/4" mortise in the tenon
                          from top to bottom. Having the mortise go straight through and using
                          an wedge shaped pin meant that only one small spot of the pin was
                          contacting the instide of the mortise. I then took out more material
                          to make the mortise angled and I recut my pin to match the angle and
                          keep it short enough to stay below the tabletop when in place. Now I
                          have a lot of contact in the mortise which puts pressure on the top
                          and bottom of the tennon. This removed most of the wobble. There is
                          still a little side to side wiggle, but I will probably glue small
                          blocks jsut below the base of the tenon to act as shoulders and that
                          should reduce that movement.

                          I'll try to post some pics on my webpage this evening.
                          http://www.dwarvenaxe.com The link will be in the Woodworks
                          section. Assuming this test works successfully, I'll be fixing or
                          replacing my existing trestles to this design.

                          If someone else tries this or sees an obvious issue this this design,
                          please let me know.

                          Stefan



                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bray <tbray@m...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >Who has made the 'sawhorse' style trestle tables?
                          >
                          > I have made some, in a knockdown style.
                          >
                          > >What angles and sizes did you find worked best?
                          > >
                          > >Did you make 3 or 4 legged trestles?
                          >
                          > Mine are tripods. Both the front and back legs are angled, at
                          about 4 degrees.
                          >
                          > >I made a prototype legs from scrap plywood
                          > >( 3 legged )
                          > >and didn't like the way it came out.
                          >
                          > I'm not completely satisfied with mine, either. They look nice and
                          work
                          > well... up to a point. A couple of customers think they are too
                          > wobbly. This comes of making them knockdown.
                          >
                          > I don't think most of the medieval versions were made to come
                          apart. Most
                          > of them look like they have pretty thick legs, permanently joined
                          to the
                          > horizontal support. This would be a lot sturdier, but almost
                          impossible to
                          > pack for travel.
                          >
                          > I'm still trying to solve this problem: how to make trestles that
                          are
                          > sturdy and stable, but can be taken apart and packed flat.
                          Suggestions
                          > welcome!
                          >
                          > >( My wife found out that
                          > >only the poor didn't cover up their tables
                          > >with table clothes
                          >
                          > Yes, which makes documentation of these things extremely
                          difficult. 90% of
                          > the time, the trestles are hidden by the tablecloth. (Simliar
                          problem with
                          > beds, btw.) I do have a few details from paintings and
                          illuminations; maybe
                          > I'll try throwing them onto a Web page so we can all discuss them.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Colin
                          >
                          >
                          > Albion Works
                          > Furniture and Accessories
                          > For the Medievalist!
                          > www.albionworks.net
                          > www.albionworks.com
                        • Tim Bray
                          Stefan, ... Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are especially treasured. ... Yes. ... That s the way my tripod trestles
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 13 1:09 PM
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                            Stefan,

                            >I want to start by saying your web page has fantastic wood furniture.

                            Thanks! Compliments are always nice, and those from other woodworkers are
                            especially treasured.

                            >I've made a few knockdown trestle tables using slots and datos but
                            >they get loose quickly and wobble.

                            Yes.

                            > I believe you have a picture on
                            >your webpage of a trestle where the cross piece is aligned up and
                            >down and your pin passes through side to side.

                            That's the way my tripod trestles were made.

                            > Last night I was
                            >working on this wobble problem and cut a mortise for the pin to go
                            >top to bottom. The way it holds over a larger area of the leg and
                            >seems sturdier than the cross pin. The other thing I did was cut the
                            >pin's mortise at an angel to match the pins angle. This gave a
                            >larger area of contact inside the mortise and the leg stopped
                            >wobbling.

                            Yes, that's the way I make the bed rail-to-post joint. See the "beds" page
                            for a photo.

                            >The material I'm using is 7/8" maple. The cross piece is
                            >5" wide and the tenon is 3" wide x 4" long.

                            This is actually very close to the dimensions of the bed-rail joint! The
                            rails are about 7/8 thick, a little over 5" wide, the tenons are 3" wide,
                            and the posts are made from 8/4 stock so they are about 1-3/4" thick.

                            >I didn't cut a shoulder
                            >for the tenon because I felt the material is too thin.

                            (I think you mean you didn't cut _cheeks_; there are 1" shoulders on either
                            side of the tenon, right?) And it turns out to be unnecessary, I
                            think. With 7/8 wide stock the shoulders are sufficient, especially with
                            the power of that long wedge.

                            Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
                            tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
                            think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
                            there is.

                            However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
                            that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
                            problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

                            The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
                            it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
                            pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
                            that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
                            bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
                            top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
                            seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown
                            joinery. (Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

                            What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
                            horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
                            mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
                            shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
                            weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

                            Thanks for discussing this. Any more ideas?

                            Cheers,
                            Colin
                            Albion Works
                            Furniture and Accessories
                            For the Medievalist!
                            www.albionworks.net
                            www.albionworks.com
                          • Stefan von Kiel
                            Hello Colin, More thoughts on period style trestle tables... ... I agree. ... I ve been calling the sawhorse trestle a period tressle and the commonly seen
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 14 11:08 AM
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                              Hello Colin,

                              More thoughts on period style trestle tables...

                              >Basically what you describe is a very traditional way of making 'trestle
                              >tables.' I've made them that way myself and it is definitely the best. I
                              >think the vertically-wedged tenon is the strongest and best knockdown joint
                              >there is.

                              I agree.

                              >However... the question is how to use that joint on the 'sawhorse' trestles
                              >that we were originally discussing. (Apparently there is a terminology
                              >problem; what we call a 'trestle table' does not use 'sawhorse trestles.' )

                              I've been calling the "sawhorse trestle" a period tressle and the commonly
                              seen
                              trestle a standard trestle. I made a standard trestle out of 4/4 hickory
                              and use it
                              as a work table. It is heavy and very sturdy. If there is a better name
                              for the two
                              types of trestle tables, I'd like to know so I can call it by it's proper
                              name.

                              >The problem I'm having with my tripod trestles isn't vertical wobbling,
                              >it's side-to-side wobbling. Using a vertical wedge instead of a horizontal
                              >pin might improve that a little; but I suspect a big part of my problem is
                              >that the front pieces are only 1/2" thick, which means there isn't much
                              >bearing surface between the tenon and the mortise. I'd like to rotate the
                              >top stretcher, so it is flat/horizontal (which is the way the medieval ones
                              >seem to have been done), but then there's no room for knockdown joinery.
                              >(Maybe I need to post a photo showing the detail of this joint?)

                              I've seen drawings and illuminations with the horizontal stretcher but
                              couldn't
                              see a way to make it break down and be sturdy. Maybe if the legs had a
                              tenon
                              and went into a mortise in the horizontal stretcher, but no way to secure it
                              with a pin.

                              >What I think I need to do is make the front as an A-shape (two legs with a
                              >horizontal stretcher) out of 6/4 stock so there is more depth to the
                              >mortise, and maybe use 6/4 for the top stretcher as well so I can put wider
                              >shoulders on the tenon. But all this drives the cost way up, and the
                              >weight, too. I don't think I'd sell many of them.

                              For the front leg, I have tried using a triangle with the legs going up the
                              sides
                              and meeting at the top. I wasn't using a mortis/tenon joint but it would
                              have
                              worked well. Now I'm cutting a 15 degree angle on both parts of the leg for
                              a 30 degree spread. I don't make the top a point. I cut it back so the top
                              is
                              flat and about 2 " wide. I've used 30 degrees a few times and it seems
                              sturdy
                              enough.



                              Stefan von Kiel
                              Dwarven Axe Armoury
                              www.dwarvenaxe.com





                              ----Original Message Follows----
                              From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
                              Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: 'sawhorse' trestle tables
                              Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:09:53 -0700

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