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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Board feet

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  • maf@gleichen.ca
    From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks as it dries. Mark ... From: Robb Schuster To:
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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      From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks
      as it dries.

      Mark

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:28 PM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Board feet


      > Next question
      >
      > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
      >
      > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
      > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
      >
      >
      > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
      > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
      > houses were cut on site.
      >
      > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
      > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
      > Does oak shrink badly?
      >
      > Halv
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • Jared
      --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber framed with green
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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        --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a
        bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber
        framed with green oak 100 years ago and its still standing. I have
        read many books on timber frame, in at least one, the builder used
        green oak to frame a house, his findings were basically just what I
        said, its heavy, but strong. You will want to get all your timbers
        framed into the structure before they dry out too much and start to
        warp. If not, at least stack them and maybe band the pile with plenty
        of stickers in between, to keep them as straight as you can till they
        get used. If you cut real mortise and tenons and peg them with dry
        dowels, you should have tight joints. One thing to remember, wood
        glue wont work at all, on green lumber, PL200 subfloor/construction
        adheasive, is rated to bond green treated lumber, and will work much
        better, if you intended to use any glues.
        Jared

        - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Next question
        >
        > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
        >
        > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
        > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
        >
        >
        > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
        > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
        > houses were cut on site.
        >
        > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
        > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
        > Does oak shrink badly?
        >
        > Halv
        >
      • Eric
        If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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          If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
          participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
          They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
          you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
          Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
          them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
          masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
          board (no insult intended to anyone here).

          It sounds as if you've found a great opportunity for materials and
          expertise. Given the same chance, I'd start this project in a
          heartbeat.

          Eirikr Mjoksiglandi,
          Way out west...


          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster"
          <schusterrl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Next question
          >
          > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
          >
          > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I
          believe
          > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
          >
          >
          > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
          > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
          > houses were cut on site.
          >
          > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
          > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
          > Does oak shrink badly?
          >
          > Halv
          >

          --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but
          also be part of construction as well, the local community is very
          involved in local house building:)

          Halv
        • Jared
          If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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            "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
            participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
            They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
            you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
            Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
            them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
            masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
            board (no insult intended to anyone here)."



            Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
            neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
            groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
            rest of us, they are currently doing a log cabin, that will be
            dissasembled and sent to georgia, (we're in wisconsin) Jonas (the
            elder) told me they had never built one before, amazing, that anyone
            would hire anyone else to build thier house, site unseen, and assume
            it would be done in a skilled manor just because they were amish. If
            you or I were to try to get that job, we would have to prove our
            expeirience very completly.
            Please dont get me wrong, they are good people and good neighbors,
            I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the tourist
            market around here pays extra for "Amish craftmanship". Ive been in
            thier cabinet shops, they do good work, but no different than myself,
            they use exactly the same tools. A grizzly table saw, jointer and
            shaper and even pocket hole machines, (all run by a line shaft) and
            thay use pnuematic sanders. Good craftsmanship, but not exactly "old
            world".
            If any fellow scadiens do many projects with hand tools, you are
            probabably more authentic than even the most conservative amish in my
            area. (there are many different groups). Its not the Amish that
            bother me at all, its the ignorant view that others show about them.
            Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry and
            cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that all
            are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
            than any other stereotype you can think of.

            I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is not
            a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
            just present a logical view on the topic.
            Jared
          • James Winkler
            ... market around here pays extra for Amish craftsmanship .
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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              >> I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the
              tourist
              market around here pays extra for "Amish craftsmanship".  <<
               
              ... and therein lies the difference between 'real value' and perceived value.  As they said in Indy Jones... take a cheap watch, bury it in the sand for a few thousand years and it becomes priceless.  What's changed... only the 'perception of value/rarity/whatever pushes your personal psychological buttons' ...  most 'value' is in perception, hence the marketing tool of 'branding'...  
               
              ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
               
              ... and then there's the consumer perception of "collectable" vs. the merchandising perception of "collectable" (I.e., "we can build more of em' than you can buy... but we dare ya' to try to keep up")...  BUT THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT RANT...
               
              I share yer' pain Jared...
               
              Chas.
            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              Is James Cunningham an Amish name? buttons ... What s in a name? ... in a lot of cases... well... a lot ...
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                buttons' ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
              • James Winkler
                Might be... heck I d be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! Chas.
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                  Might be... heck I'd be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! 
                   
                  Winking smiley emoticon
                   
                  Chas.
                   
                  =================================

                   
                  Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                  buttons' ... "What's in a name?" .. in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                • julian wilson
                  Jared wrote: If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                    Jared <tudweber_jr@...> wrote:
                    "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                        I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                     
                    COMMENT
                    Jared,
                    that's a most interesting Post.
                     
                    Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"



                    Yours in Service,
                    Matthew
                    ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                    Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]
                    aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
                    "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                    [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                    Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org  >"
                    -


                    Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                  • Eric
                    Jared, Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar milling before, and
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                      Jared,

                      Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                      were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                      milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                      material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                      the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                      though acquired experience.

                      So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                      specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                      not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                      when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                      more reliable.

                      Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                      Eirikr

                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                      > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                      > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                      > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                      > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                      let
                      > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                      > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                      > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                      >
                      >
                      > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                      > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                      > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                      > rest of us,....
                      > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                      and
                      > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                      all
                      > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                      > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                      >
                      > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                      not
                      > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                      > just present a logical view on the topic.
                      > Jared
                      >
                    • Jared
                      I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have been suurounded by
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                        I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained
                        a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have
                        been suurounded by them. The ones next door to me are most
                        conservative, thay wont even use covered buggies, thay go down the
                        road when its below zero, holding an umbrella in front of them. They
                        follow many other stringent rules, but they do ride in other peoples
                        cars and come over to use my telephone, and like I said, use the same
                        tools in thier cabinet shop as I do. All powered by a line shaft with
                        a diesel engine at the end of the building. Another local sect is
                        much less conservative and I know many of them how drink coffee, smoke
                        or chew tobbacco, and converse casually and jokingly with others, I
                        have no judgemental view on any of this, its just when you really look
                        at it, some of them really live something of a life of reenactment,
                        with certain provisions. Not disimilar from sca, were we follow
                        certain rules that work for most, but not willing to give up all
                        convieniences.
                        This is a concept most of us could ponder, how inclined would we be
                        to do things, authenticly, in period fashion, if we had to do it all
                        the time, and the easy way was right there and available, all the time.
                        The thing about any Amish work or woodwork, that people dont realize
                        is that they will always do things as efficiently as they can within
                        thier rules, they are not foolish, instead, fitting between the
                        guidlines they live by makes them more inginuitive, they have to
                        figure out how to modify all modern equiptment to run on stationary
                        engines, or build thier own. The largest amish sawmill, a few miles
                        from me, has a hydralic log clam mounted on a chasis with steel wheels
                        drawn by a team of horses.
                        The whole thing strikes me as one giant anochronism

                        This is a far different view from many of my nieghbors, who have
                        nothing good to say about them and are very unhappy that they moved
                        into the valley. As far as I can tell this is nothing more than " I
                        dont like them cause thier different" type of mentality. Myself, I
                        would much rather have a neighbor who was bound to a life of honesty
                        and hard work, than say, someone who intended to move in and start a
                        meth lab ( thier quite the rage in wisconsin right now).

                        As far as perception of Amish quality being tied to scripture, I
                        dont know anyone who is really familiar with what scipture it is that
                        dictates what amish live by, so I doubt its possble that any of the
                        buyers have given it any thought whatsoever. I am very familiar with
                        biblical scripture myself, and attempt to live by it, but I wouldnt
                        say it decieds my quality of work, rather its my personal integrity
                        that is attached to everything I make that holds me to quality. I
                        feel personaly reaponsible for my work, and anyone who buys it should
                        be happy with it, and it should work properly. Most likely this value
                        of integrity comes from my christian upbringing, my father said and
                        lived by, "anything worth doing is worth doing right". If an Amish
                        man's dedication to quaility is tied to scripture, or tied to personal
                        standards, I could not possibly say, its just that I doubt that most
                        any of the consumers have ever consdered the manor with such depth.

                        If the rest of the world could live by "all things done well"
                        regardless of what god they believed in, if any, it would be a good start.
                        . Jared
                        Riesenweber


                        about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                        > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                        nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend
                        anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                        > COMMENT
                        > Jared,
                        > that's a most interesting Post.
                        >
                        > Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have
                        something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the
                        Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath
                        guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yours in Service,
                        > Matthew
                        > ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                        > Motto - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for
                        Peace, prepare for War") ]
                        > aka. - Julian Wilson, - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald,
                        Historian, & Master Artisan to
                        > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                        > [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                        > Meet us at < www.dukesleopards.org >"
                        > [input]
                        > -
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
                        with voicemail
                        >
                      • Jared
                        --Eirikr It s more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any statement 100%
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                          --Eirikr
                          It's more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic
                          than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any
                          statement 100% right or wrong. Im not sure that you even need to
                          stand to be corrected, since you show no ignorance whatsoever.
                          Jared



                          - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jared,
                          >
                          > Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                          > were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                          > milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                          > material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                          > the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                          > though acquired experience.
                          >
                          > So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                          > specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                          > not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                          > when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                          > more reliable.
                          >
                          > Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                          > Eirikr
                          >
                          > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                          > > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                          > > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                          > > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                          > > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                          > let
                          > > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                          > > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                          > > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                          > > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                          > > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                          > > rest of us,....
                          > > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                          > and
                          > > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                          > all
                          > > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                          > > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                          > >
                          > > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                          > not
                          > > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                          > > just present a logical view on the topic.
                          > > Jared
                          > >
                          >
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