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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Board feet

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  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
    I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you going to build? Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak. James Cunningham
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5 9:47 AM
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      I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you
      going to build?

      Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak.

      James Cunningham

      > > Still a better deal than I had imagined!
      >
      > It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
      > to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
      > cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)
      >
      > Tibor (Most often heard in my shop:
      > "What the hell was I thinking - that could never have worked!")
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Robb Schuster
      Next question The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe $0.50/ board foot for
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5 12:28 PM
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        Next question

        The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need

        Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
        $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.


        Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
        constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
        houses were cut on site.

        I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
        (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
        Does oak shrink badly?

        Halv
      • maf@gleichen.ca
        From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks as it dries. Mark ... From: Robb Schuster To:
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5 12:51 PM
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          From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks
          as it dries.

          Mark

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
          To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:28 PM
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Board feet


          > Next question
          >
          > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
          >
          > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
          > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
          >
          >
          > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
          > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
          > houses were cut on site.
          >
          > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
          > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
          > Does oak shrink badly?
          >
          > Halv
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Jared
          --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber framed with green
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5 7:31 PM
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            --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a
            bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber
            framed with green oak 100 years ago and its still standing. I have
            read many books on timber frame, in at least one, the builder used
            green oak to frame a house, his findings were basically just what I
            said, its heavy, but strong. You will want to get all your timbers
            framed into the structure before they dry out too much and start to
            warp. If not, at least stack them and maybe band the pile with plenty
            of stickers in between, to keep them as straight as you can till they
            get used. If you cut real mortise and tenons and peg them with dry
            dowels, you should have tight joints. One thing to remember, wood
            glue wont work at all, on green lumber, PL200 subfloor/construction
            adheasive, is rated to bond green treated lumber, and will work much
            better, if you intended to use any glues.
            Jared

            - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Next question
            >
            > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
            >
            > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
            > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
            >
            >
            > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
            > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
            > houses were cut on site.
            >
            > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
            > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
            > Does oak shrink badly?
            >
            > Halv
            >
          • Eric
            If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 6 10:07 AM
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              If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
              participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
              They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
              you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
              Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
              them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
              masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
              board (no insult intended to anyone here).

              It sounds as if you've found a great opportunity for materials and
              expertise. Given the same chance, I'd start this project in a
              heartbeat.

              Eirikr Mjoksiglandi,
              Way out west...


              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster"
              <schusterrl@...> wrote:
              >
              > Next question
              >
              > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
              >
              > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I
              believe
              > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
              >
              >
              > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
              > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
              > houses were cut on site.
              >
              > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
              > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
              > Does oak shrink badly?
              >
              > Halv
              >

              --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but
              also be part of construction as well, the local community is very
              involved in local house building:)

              Halv
            • Jared
              If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 6 8:23 PM
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                "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
                them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                board (no insult intended to anyone here)."



                Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                rest of us, they are currently doing a log cabin, that will be
                dissasembled and sent to georgia, (we're in wisconsin) Jonas (the
                elder) told me they had never built one before, amazing, that anyone
                would hire anyone else to build thier house, site unseen, and assume
                it would be done in a skilled manor just because they were amish. If
                you or I were to try to get that job, we would have to prove our
                expeirience very completly.
                Please dont get me wrong, they are good people and good neighbors,
                I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the tourist
                market around here pays extra for "Amish craftmanship". Ive been in
                thier cabinet shops, they do good work, but no different than myself,
                they use exactly the same tools. A grizzly table saw, jointer and
                shaper and even pocket hole machines, (all run by a line shaft) and
                thay use pnuematic sanders. Good craftsmanship, but not exactly "old
                world".
                If any fellow scadiens do many projects with hand tools, you are
                probabably more authentic than even the most conservative amish in my
                area. (there are many different groups). Its not the Amish that
                bother me at all, its the ignorant view that others show about them.
                Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry and
                cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that all
                are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                than any other stereotype you can think of.

                I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is not
                a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                just present a logical view on the topic.
                Jared
              • James Winkler
                ... market around here pays extra for Amish craftsmanship .
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 6 9:28 PM
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                  >> I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the
                  tourist
                  market around here pays extra for "Amish craftsmanship".  <<
                   
                  ... and therein lies the difference between 'real value' and perceived value.  As they said in Indy Jones... take a cheap watch, bury it in the sand for a few thousand years and it becomes priceless.  What's changed... only the 'perception of value/rarity/whatever pushes your personal psychological buttons' ...  most 'value' is in perception, hence the marketing tool of 'branding'...  
                   
                  ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                   
                  ... and then there's the consumer perception of "collectable" vs. the merchandising perception of "collectable" (I.e., "we can build more of em' than you can buy... but we dare ya' to try to keep up")...  BUT THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT RANT...
                   
                  I share yer' pain Jared...
                   
                  Chas.
                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  Is James Cunningham an Amish name? buttons ... What s in a name? ... in a lot of cases... well... a lot ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 6 9:49 PM
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                    Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                    buttons' ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                  • James Winkler
                    Might be... heck I d be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! Chas.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 6 10:15 PM
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                      Might be... heck I'd be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! 
                       
                      Winking smiley emoticon
                       
                      Chas.
                       
                      =================================

                       
                      Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                      buttons' ... "What's in a name?" .. in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                    • julian wilson
                      Jared wrote: If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 7 9:26 AM
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                        Jared <tudweber_jr@...> wrote:
                        "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                            I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                         
                        COMMENT
                        Jared,
                        that's a most interesting Post.
                         
                        Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"



                        Yours in Service,
                        Matthew
                        ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                        Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]
                        aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
                        "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                        [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediƦval living-history Group]
                        Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org  >"
                        -


                        Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                      • Eric
                        Jared, Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar milling before, and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 7 10:54 AM
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                          Jared,

                          Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                          were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                          milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                          material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                          the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                          though acquired experience.

                          So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                          specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                          not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                          when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                          more reliable.

                          Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                          Eirikr

                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                          > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                          > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                          > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                          > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                          let
                          > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                          > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                          > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                          >
                          >
                          > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                          > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                          > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                          > rest of us,....
                          > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                          and
                          > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                          all
                          > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                          > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                          >
                          > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                          not
                          > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                          > just present a logical view on the topic.
                          > Jared
                          >
                        • Jared
                          I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have been suurounded by
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 8 10:07 PM
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                            I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained
                            a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have
                            been suurounded by them. The ones next door to me are most
                            conservative, thay wont even use covered buggies, thay go down the
                            road when its below zero, holding an umbrella in front of them. They
                            follow many other stringent rules, but they do ride in other peoples
                            cars and come over to use my telephone, and like I said, use the same
                            tools in thier cabinet shop as I do. All powered by a line shaft with
                            a diesel engine at the end of the building. Another local sect is
                            much less conservative and I know many of them how drink coffee, smoke
                            or chew tobbacco, and converse casually and jokingly with others, I
                            have no judgemental view on any of this, its just when you really look
                            at it, some of them really live something of a life of reenactment,
                            with certain provisions. Not disimilar from sca, were we follow
                            certain rules that work for most, but not willing to give up all
                            convieniences.
                            This is a concept most of us could ponder, how inclined would we be
                            to do things, authenticly, in period fashion, if we had to do it all
                            the time, and the easy way was right there and available, all the time.
                            The thing about any Amish work or woodwork, that people dont realize
                            is that they will always do things as efficiently as they can within
                            thier rules, they are not foolish, instead, fitting between the
                            guidlines they live by makes them more inginuitive, they have to
                            figure out how to modify all modern equiptment to run on stationary
                            engines, or build thier own. The largest amish sawmill, a few miles
                            from me, has a hydralic log clam mounted on a chasis with steel wheels
                            drawn by a team of horses.
                            The whole thing strikes me as one giant anochronism

                            This is a far different view from many of my nieghbors, who have
                            nothing good to say about them and are very unhappy that they moved
                            into the valley. As far as I can tell this is nothing more than " I
                            dont like them cause thier different" type of mentality. Myself, I
                            would much rather have a neighbor who was bound to a life of honesty
                            and hard work, than say, someone who intended to move in and start a
                            meth lab ( thier quite the rage in wisconsin right now).

                            As far as perception of Amish quality being tied to scripture, I
                            dont know anyone who is really familiar with what scipture it is that
                            dictates what amish live by, so I doubt its possble that any of the
                            buyers have given it any thought whatsoever. I am very familiar with
                            biblical scripture myself, and attempt to live by it, but I wouldnt
                            say it decieds my quality of work, rather its my personal integrity
                            that is attached to everything I make that holds me to quality. I
                            feel personaly reaponsible for my work, and anyone who buys it should
                            be happy with it, and it should work properly. Most likely this value
                            of integrity comes from my christian upbringing, my father said and
                            lived by, "anything worth doing is worth doing right". If an Amish
                            man's dedication to quaility is tied to scripture, or tied to personal
                            standards, I could not possibly say, its just that I doubt that most
                            any of the consumers have ever consdered the manor with such depth.

                            If the rest of the world could live by "all things done well"
                            regardless of what god they believed in, if any, it would be a good start.
                            . Jared
                            Riesenweber


                            about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                            > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                            nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend
                            anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                            > COMMENT
                            > Jared,
                            > that's a most interesting Post.
                            >
                            > Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have
                            something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the
                            Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath
                            guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yours in Service,
                            > Matthew
                            > ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                            > Motto - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for
                            Peace, prepare for War") ]
                            > aka. - Julian Wilson, - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald,
                            Historian, & Master Artisan to
                            > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                            > [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediƦval living-history Group]
                            > Meet us at < www.dukesleopards.org >"
                            > [input]
                            > -
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
                            with voicemail
                            >
                          • Jared
                            --Eirikr It s more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any statement 100%
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 8 10:40 PM
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                              --Eirikr
                              It's more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic
                              than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any
                              statement 100% right or wrong. Im not sure that you even need to
                              stand to be corrected, since you show no ignorance whatsoever.
                              Jared



                              - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Jared,
                              >
                              > Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                              > were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                              > milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                              > material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                              > the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                              > though acquired experience.
                              >
                              > So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                              > specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                              > not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                              > when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                              > more reliable.
                              >
                              > Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                              > Eirikr
                              >
                              > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                              > > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                              > > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                              > > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                              > > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                              > let
                              > > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                              > > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                              > > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                              > > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                              > > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                              > > rest of us,....
                              > > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                              > and
                              > > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                              > all
                              > > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                              > > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                              > >
                              > > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                              > not
                              > > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                              > > just present a logical view on the topic.
                              > > Jared
                              > >
                              >
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