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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Board feet

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  • Robb Schuster
    ... --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but also be part of construction as well, the local community is very involved in local house
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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      It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
      to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
      cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)
       
       
      --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but also be part of construction as well, the local community is very involved in local house building:)
       
      Halv
       

       
    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
      ... If other than these the standard is 1 board foot = 12 wide x 1 inch thick x 1 foot long x per 1board James Cunningham Sawyer assuming 16 pieces 10inches
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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        > There seems to be some wierd math involved that I cant seem to figure
        > out.
        If other than these the standard is 1 board foot = 12 wide x 1 inch thick x
        1 foot long x per 1board

        James Cunningham
        Sawyer

        assuming 16 pieces 10inches wide by 10 inches thick and 10 inches long
        16 x 10/12 x 10/12 x 10/12 = 9.259
        30 x 10/12 x 6/12 x 10/12 = 10.417
        8 x 3/12 x 6/12 x 10/12 = .8333
        8 x 2/12 x 6/12 x 1/12 = 1

        Assuming 16 pieces 10 inches wide by 10 inches thick by 10 feet long

        16 x 10/12 x 10/12 x 10 = 111.111
        30 x 10/12 x 10/6 x 10 = 125.000
        8 x 3/12 x 6/12 x 10 = 10.000
        8 x 2/12 x 6/12 x 1 = .666

        > 16 - 10x10x10
        > 30 - 10x6x10
        > 8 - 3x6x10
        > 8 - 2x6x1
        >
        > Is that enough information?
        >
        > Halv
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
        That is about average you will loose about a fourth to a third in drying. But the 10 x10s are cheap per/board foot to cut out. Thin lumber is the expensive
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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          That is about average you will loose about a fourth to a third in drying.  But the 10 x10s are cheap per/board foot to cut out.  Thin lumber is the expensive stuff for a sawyer to make(uses up a lot of sawblade and even more time).
           
          James Cunningham
          Sawyer
           
          PS 250 board foot is a small cabin.  I used 1125 board feet  to sheet a roof for a 20 x 40 building   16 x 43 x 2 = 1344 square foot of roof
           
          Keep in mind that I assumed all the dimensions you gave were in inches.

           

          Over at Rockler there’s kiln dried, S2S red oak ¾” thick for $3.50/bf.  As long as you’re up for drying and surfacing the wood, I’d say the Amish are cutting you a square deal.  How soon did you need to start this project?

           

          Charles

           

          That's a fair bit of wood.

           

          --Yup, it takes a fair bit to build a longhouse:)

          Though at the prices I am looking at it appears as if we will be able to build either more houses or at least a larger intial house.

           

          So, I am not rocket scientist but if the local Amish are charging .50 a board foot foot for their green oak and I need approx 250 board feet, I am looking at $125??? (that cant be right can it?)

           

          What does wood generally run commercially per board foot?

           

          Halv?

           

           


           


        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
          I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you going to build? Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak. James Cunningham
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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            I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you
            going to build?

            Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak.

            James Cunningham

            > > Still a better deal than I had imagined!
            >
            > It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
            > to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
            > cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)
            >
            > Tibor (Most often heard in my shop:
            > "What the hell was I thinking - that could never have worked!")
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Robb Schuster
            Next question The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe $0.50/ board foot for
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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              Next question

              The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need

              Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
              $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.


              Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
              constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
              houses were cut on site.

              I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
              (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
              Does oak shrink badly?

              Halv
            • maf@gleichen.ca
              From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks as it dries. Mark ... From: Robb Schuster To:
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks
                as it dries.

                Mark

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
                To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:28 PM
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Board feet


                > Next question
                >
                > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                >
                > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
                > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                >
                >
                > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                > houses were cut on site.
                >
                > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                > Does oak shrink badly?
                >
                > Halv
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Jared
                --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber framed with green
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                  --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a
                  bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber
                  framed with green oak 100 years ago and its still standing. I have
                  read many books on timber frame, in at least one, the builder used
                  green oak to frame a house, his findings were basically just what I
                  said, its heavy, but strong. You will want to get all your timbers
                  framed into the structure before they dry out too much and start to
                  warp. If not, at least stack them and maybe band the pile with plenty
                  of stickers in between, to keep them as straight as you can till they
                  get used. If you cut real mortise and tenons and peg them with dry
                  dowels, you should have tight joints. One thing to remember, wood
                  glue wont work at all, on green lumber, PL200 subfloor/construction
                  adheasive, is rated to bond green treated lumber, and will work much
                  better, if you intended to use any glues.
                  Jared

                  - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Next question
                  >
                  > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                  >
                  > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
                  > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                  >
                  >
                  > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                  > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                  > houses were cut on site.
                  >
                  > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                  > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                  > Does oak shrink badly?
                  >
                  > Halv
                  >
                • Eric
                  If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                    If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                    participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                    They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                    you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                    Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
                    them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                    masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                    board (no insult intended to anyone here).

                    It sounds as if you've found a great opportunity for materials and
                    expertise. Given the same chance, I'd start this project in a
                    heartbeat.

                    Eirikr Mjoksiglandi,
                    Way out west...


                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster"
                    <schusterrl@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Next question
                    >
                    > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                    >
                    > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I
                    believe
                    > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                    >
                    >
                    > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                    > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                    > houses were cut on site.
                    >
                    > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                    > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                    > Does oak shrink badly?
                    >
                    > Halv
                    >

                    --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but
                    also be part of construction as well, the local community is very
                    involved in local house building:)

                    Halv
                  • Jared
                    If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                      "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                      participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                      They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                      you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                      Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
                      them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                      masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                      board (no insult intended to anyone here)."



                      Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                      neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                      groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                      rest of us, they are currently doing a log cabin, that will be
                      dissasembled and sent to georgia, (we're in wisconsin) Jonas (the
                      elder) told me they had never built one before, amazing, that anyone
                      would hire anyone else to build thier house, site unseen, and assume
                      it would be done in a skilled manor just because they were amish. If
                      you or I were to try to get that job, we would have to prove our
                      expeirience very completly.
                      Please dont get me wrong, they are good people and good neighbors,
                      I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the tourist
                      market around here pays extra for "Amish craftmanship". Ive been in
                      thier cabinet shops, they do good work, but no different than myself,
                      they use exactly the same tools. A grizzly table saw, jointer and
                      shaper and even pocket hole machines, (all run by a line shaft) and
                      thay use pnuematic sanders. Good craftsmanship, but not exactly "old
                      world".
                      If any fellow scadiens do many projects with hand tools, you are
                      probabably more authentic than even the most conservative amish in my
                      area. (there are many different groups). Its not the Amish that
                      bother me at all, its the ignorant view that others show about them.
                      Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry and
                      cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that all
                      are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                      than any other stereotype you can think of.

                      I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is not
                      a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                      just present a logical view on the topic.
                      Jared
                    • James Winkler
                      ... market around here pays extra for Amish craftsmanship .
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                        >> I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the
                        tourist
                        market around here pays extra for "Amish craftsmanship".  <<
                         
                        ... and therein lies the difference between 'real value' and perceived value.  As they said in Indy Jones... take a cheap watch, bury it in the sand for a few thousand years and it becomes priceless.  What's changed... only the 'perception of value/rarity/whatever pushes your personal psychological buttons' ...  most 'value' is in perception, hence the marketing tool of 'branding'...  
                         
                        ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                         
                        ... and then there's the consumer perception of "collectable" vs. the merchandising perception of "collectable" (I.e., "we can build more of em' than you can buy... but we dare ya' to try to keep up")...  BUT THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT RANT...
                         
                        I share yer' pain Jared...
                         
                        Chas.
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        Is James Cunningham an Amish name? buttons ... What s in a name? ... in a lot of cases... well... a lot ...
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                          Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                          buttons' ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                        • James Winkler
                          Might be... heck I d be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! Chas.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                            Might be... heck I'd be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! 
                             
                            Winking smiley emoticon
                             
                            Chas.
                             
                            =================================

                             
                            Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                            buttons' ... "What's in a name?" .. in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                          • julian wilson
                            Jared wrote: If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                              Jared <tudweber_jr@...> wrote:
                              "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                                  I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                               
                              COMMENT
                              Jared,
                              that's a most interesting Post.
                               
                              Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"



                              Yours in Service,
                              Matthew
                              ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                              Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]
                              aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
                              "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                              [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                              Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org  >"
                              -


                              Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                            • Eric
                              Jared, Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar milling before, and
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                                Jared,

                                Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                                were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                                milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                                material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                                the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                                though acquired experience.

                                So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                                specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                                not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                                when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                                more reliable.

                                Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                                Eirikr

                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                                > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                                > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                                > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                                > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                                let
                                > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                                > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                                > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                                >
                                >
                                > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                                > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                                > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                                > rest of us,....
                                > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                                and
                                > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                                all
                                > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                                > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                                >
                                > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                not
                                > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                                > just present a logical view on the topic.
                                > Jared
                                >
                              • Jared
                                I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have been suurounded by
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                  I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained
                                  a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have
                                  been suurounded by them. The ones next door to me are most
                                  conservative, thay wont even use covered buggies, thay go down the
                                  road when its below zero, holding an umbrella in front of them. They
                                  follow many other stringent rules, but they do ride in other peoples
                                  cars and come over to use my telephone, and like I said, use the same
                                  tools in thier cabinet shop as I do. All powered by a line shaft with
                                  a diesel engine at the end of the building. Another local sect is
                                  much less conservative and I know many of them how drink coffee, smoke
                                  or chew tobbacco, and converse casually and jokingly with others, I
                                  have no judgemental view on any of this, its just when you really look
                                  at it, some of them really live something of a life of reenactment,
                                  with certain provisions. Not disimilar from sca, were we follow
                                  certain rules that work for most, but not willing to give up all
                                  convieniences.
                                  This is a concept most of us could ponder, how inclined would we be
                                  to do things, authenticly, in period fashion, if we had to do it all
                                  the time, and the easy way was right there and available, all the time.
                                  The thing about any Amish work or woodwork, that people dont realize
                                  is that they will always do things as efficiently as they can within
                                  thier rules, they are not foolish, instead, fitting between the
                                  guidlines they live by makes them more inginuitive, they have to
                                  figure out how to modify all modern equiptment to run on stationary
                                  engines, or build thier own. The largest amish sawmill, a few miles
                                  from me, has a hydralic log clam mounted on a chasis with steel wheels
                                  drawn by a team of horses.
                                  The whole thing strikes me as one giant anochronism

                                  This is a far different view from many of my nieghbors, who have
                                  nothing good to say about them and are very unhappy that they moved
                                  into the valley. As far as I can tell this is nothing more than " I
                                  dont like them cause thier different" type of mentality. Myself, I
                                  would much rather have a neighbor who was bound to a life of honesty
                                  and hard work, than say, someone who intended to move in and start a
                                  meth lab ( thier quite the rage in wisconsin right now).

                                  As far as perception of Amish quality being tied to scripture, I
                                  dont know anyone who is really familiar with what scipture it is that
                                  dictates what amish live by, so I doubt its possble that any of the
                                  buyers have given it any thought whatsoever. I am very familiar with
                                  biblical scripture myself, and attempt to live by it, but I wouldnt
                                  say it decieds my quality of work, rather its my personal integrity
                                  that is attached to everything I make that holds me to quality. I
                                  feel personaly reaponsible for my work, and anyone who buys it should
                                  be happy with it, and it should work properly. Most likely this value
                                  of integrity comes from my christian upbringing, my father said and
                                  lived by, "anything worth doing is worth doing right". If an Amish
                                  man's dedication to quaility is tied to scripture, or tied to personal
                                  standards, I could not possibly say, its just that I doubt that most
                                  any of the consumers have ever consdered the manor with such depth.

                                  If the rest of the world could live by "all things done well"
                                  regardless of what god they believed in, if any, it would be a good start.
                                  . Jared
                                  Riesenweber


                                  about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                                  > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                  nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend
                                  anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                                  > COMMENT
                                  > Jared,
                                  > that's a most interesting Post.
                                  >
                                  > Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have
                                  something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the
                                  Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath
                                  guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yours in Service,
                                  > Matthew
                                  > ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                                  > Motto - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for
                                  Peace, prepare for War") ]
                                  > aka. - Julian Wilson, - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald,
                                  Historian, & Master Artisan to
                                  > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                  > [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                                  > Meet us at < www.dukesleopards.org >"
                                  > [input]
                                  > -
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
                                  with voicemail
                                  >
                                • Jared
                                  --Eirikr It s more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any statement 100%
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                    --Eirikr
                                    It's more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic
                                    than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any
                                    statement 100% right or wrong. Im not sure that you even need to
                                    stand to be corrected, since you show no ignorance whatsoever.
                                    Jared



                                    - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Jared,
                                    >
                                    > Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                                    > were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                                    > milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                                    > material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                                    > the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                                    > though acquired experience.
                                    >
                                    > So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                                    > specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                                    > not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                                    > when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                                    > more reliable.
                                    >
                                    > Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                                    > Eirikr
                                    >
                                    > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                                    > > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                                    > > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                                    > > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                                    > > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                                    > let
                                    > > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                                    > > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                                    > > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                                    > > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                                    > > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                                    > > rest of us,....
                                    > > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                                    > and
                                    > > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                                    > all
                                    > > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                                    > > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                                    > >
                                    > > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                    > not
                                    > > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                                    > > just present a logical view on the topic.
                                    > > Jared
                                    > >
                                    >
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