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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Board feet

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  • Mark Schuldenfrei
    ... I was curious about that. 16 10 x10 x10 boards? Seems odd. I would have expected, for his project, 16 10 FOOT by 10 x10 posts. If the first digit of
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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      > Keep in mind that I assumed all the dimensions you gave were in inches.

      I was curious about that. 16 10"x10"x10" boards? Seems odd. I would
      have expected, for his project, 16 10 FOOT by 10"x10" posts.

      If the first digit of each "triple" was a foot, multiply everything,
      including the costs, by 12....

      That would give 2,961.36 board feet, and a purchase price of something
      like USD $1,480.68. Which makes more sense for a building, and is no
      longer the bargain it seemed.

      Tibor
    • Robb Schuster
      ah ha! Tibor spots my mistake! Yes thats the deal, the first increment was 10 feet the rest was inches:) Still a better deal than I had imagined! Halv
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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        ah ha!
        Tibor spots my mistake!
        Yes thats the deal, the first increment was 10 feet
        the rest was inches:)
         
        Still a better deal than I had imagined!
         
        Halv


         
        On 4/5/06, Mark Schuldenfrei <mark@...> wrote:
        > Keep in mind that I assumed all the dimensions you gave were in inches.

        I was curious about that.  16 10"x10"x10" boards?  Seems odd. I would
        have expected, for his project, 16 10 FOOT by 10"x10" posts.

        If the first digit of each "triple" was a foot, multiply everything,
        including the costs, by 12....

        That would give 2,961.36 board feet, and a purchase price of something
        like USD $1,480.68.  Which makes more sense for a building, and is no
        longer the bargain it seemed.

               Tibor


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      • Mark Schuldenfrei
        ... Sorry, my friend. ... (I was thinking you had decided to make a doll-house...) ... It s a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage to
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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          > Tibor spots my mistake!

          Sorry, my friend.

          > Yes thats the deal, the first increment was 10 feet
          > the rest was inches:)

          (I was thinking you had decided to make a doll-house...)

          > Still a better deal than I had imagined!

          It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
          to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
          cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)

          Tibor (Most often heard in my shop:
          "What the hell was I thinking - that could never have worked!")
        • Robb Schuster
          ... --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but also be part of construction as well, the local community is very involved in local house
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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            It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
            to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
            cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)
             
             
            --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but also be part of construction as well, the local community is very involved in local house building:)
             
            Halv
             

             
          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
            ... If other than these the standard is 1 board foot = 12 wide x 1 inch thick x 1 foot long x per 1board James Cunningham Sawyer assuming 16 pieces 10inches
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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              > There seems to be some wierd math involved that I cant seem to figure
              > out.
              If other than these the standard is 1 board foot = 12 wide x 1 inch thick x
              1 foot long x per 1board

              James Cunningham
              Sawyer

              assuming 16 pieces 10inches wide by 10 inches thick and 10 inches long
              16 x 10/12 x 10/12 x 10/12 = 9.259
              30 x 10/12 x 6/12 x 10/12 = 10.417
              8 x 3/12 x 6/12 x 10/12 = .8333
              8 x 2/12 x 6/12 x 1/12 = 1

              Assuming 16 pieces 10 inches wide by 10 inches thick by 10 feet long

              16 x 10/12 x 10/12 x 10 = 111.111
              30 x 10/12 x 10/6 x 10 = 125.000
              8 x 3/12 x 6/12 x 10 = 10.000
              8 x 2/12 x 6/12 x 1 = .666

              > 16 - 10x10x10
              > 30 - 10x6x10
              > 8 - 3x6x10
              > 8 - 2x6x1
              >
              > Is that enough information?
              >
              > Halv
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              > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              That is about average you will loose about a fourth to a third in drying. But the 10 x10s are cheap per/board foot to cut out. Thin lumber is the expensive
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                That is about average you will loose about a fourth to a third in drying.  But the 10 x10s are cheap per/board foot to cut out.  Thin lumber is the expensive stuff for a sawyer to make(uses up a lot of sawblade and even more time).
                 
                James Cunningham
                Sawyer
                 
                PS 250 board foot is a small cabin.  I used 1125 board feet  to sheet a roof for a 20 x 40 building   16 x 43 x 2 = 1344 square foot of roof
                 
                Keep in mind that I assumed all the dimensions you gave were in inches.

                 

                Over at Rockler there’s kiln dried, S2S red oak ¾” thick for $3.50/bf.  As long as you’re up for drying and surfacing the wood, I’d say the Amish are cutting you a square deal.  How soon did you need to start this project?

                 

                Charles

                 

                That's a fair bit of wood.

                 

                --Yup, it takes a fair bit to build a longhouse:)

                Though at the prices I am looking at it appears as if we will be able to build either more houses or at least a larger intial house.

                 

                So, I am not rocket scientist but if the local Amish are charging .50 a board foot foot for their green oak and I need approx 250 board feet, I am looking at $125??? (that cant be right can it?)

                 

                What does wood generally run commercially per board foot?

                 

                Halv?

                 

                 


                 


              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you going to build? Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak. James Cunningham
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                  I think I have missed a posting to the list. What type of cabin are you
                  going to build?

                  Remember you cannot drive nails into dry oak.

                  James Cunningham

                  > > Still a better deal than I had imagined!
                  >
                  > It's a very good price, even if you have to purchase 20% overage
                  > to compensate for checking, shrinkage, theft, and the measure nonce,
                  > cut once, darnit mentality that I sometimes suffer from. :-)
                  >
                  > Tibor (Most often heard in my shop:
                  > "What the hell was I thinking - that could never have worked!")
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Robb Schuster
                  Next question The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe $0.50/ board foot for
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                    Next question

                    The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need

                    Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
                    $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.


                    Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                    constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                    houses were cut on site.

                    I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                    (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                    Does oak shrink badly?

                    Halv
                  • maf@gleichen.ca
                    From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks as it dries. Mark ... From: Robb Schuster To:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                      From what I have seen using green lumber is better because the frame locks
                      as it dries.

                      Mark

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
                      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:28 PM
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Board feet


                      > Next question
                      >
                      > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                      >
                      > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
                      > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                      >
                      >
                      > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                      > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                      > houses were cut on site.
                      >
                      > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                      > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                      > Does oak shrink badly?
                      >
                      > Halv
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jared
                      --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber framed with green
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 5, 2006
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                        --The worst thing about green oak is its real heavy, but it will cut a
                        bit easier under your chisel when its green. My dairy barn was timber
                        framed with green oak 100 years ago and its still standing. I have
                        read many books on timber frame, in at least one, the builder used
                        green oak to frame a house, his findings were basically just what I
                        said, its heavy, but strong. You will want to get all your timbers
                        framed into the structure before they dry out too much and start to
                        warp. If not, at least stack them and maybe band the pile with plenty
                        of stickers in between, to keep them as straight as you can till they
                        get used. If you cut real mortise and tenons and peg them with dry
                        dowels, you should have tight joints. One thing to remember, wood
                        glue wont work at all, on green lumber, PL200 subfloor/construction
                        adheasive, is rated to bond green treated lumber, and will work much
                        better, if you intended to use any glues.
                        Jared

                        - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster" <schusterrl@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Next question
                        >
                        > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                        >
                        > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I believe
                        > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                        >
                        >
                        > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                        > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                        > houses were cut on site.
                        >
                        > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                        > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                        > Does oak shrink badly?
                        >
                        > Halv
                        >
                      • Eric
                        If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                          If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                          participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                          They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                          you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                          Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
                          them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                          masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                          board (no insult intended to anyone here).

                          It sounds as if you've found a great opportunity for materials and
                          expertise. Given the same chance, I'd start this project in a
                          heartbeat.

                          Eirikr Mjoksiglandi,
                          Way out west...


                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Robb Schuster"
                          <schusterrl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Next question
                          >
                          > The local Amish can supply me with the wood i need
                          >
                          > Their prices are $0.15/board foot to cut logs we supply, and I
                          believe
                          > $0.50/ board foot for [oak] lumber he cuts from his supply.
                          >
                          >
                          > Now in period (Viking Age) i dont see initial settlements being
                          > constructed of dried wood. I imagine the lumber for the first few
                          > houses were cut on site.
                          >
                          > I admit I dont know alot about woods, is using green oak REAL BAD?
                          > (Basically we are using timber framing methods)
                          > Does oak shrink badly?
                          >
                          > Halv
                          >

                          --The current plan is to have the Amish not only cut the wood but
                          also be part of construction as well, the local community is very
                          involved in local house building:)

                          Halv
                        • Jared
                          If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about. They ve probably got more
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                            "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                            participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                            They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                            you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                            Though your building may look different than their typical work, let
                            them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                            masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                            board (no insult intended to anyone here)."



                            Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                            neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                            groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                            rest of us, they are currently doing a log cabin, that will be
                            dissasembled and sent to georgia, (we're in wisconsin) Jonas (the
                            elder) told me they had never built one before, amazing, that anyone
                            would hire anyone else to build thier house, site unseen, and assume
                            it would be done in a skilled manor just because they were amish. If
                            you or I were to try to get that job, we would have to prove our
                            expeirience very completly.
                            Please dont get me wrong, they are good people and good neighbors,
                            I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the tourist
                            market around here pays extra for "Amish craftmanship". Ive been in
                            thier cabinet shops, they do good work, but no different than myself,
                            they use exactly the same tools. A grizzly table saw, jointer and
                            shaper and even pocket hole machines, (all run by a line shaft) and
                            thay use pnuematic sanders. Good craftsmanship, but not exactly "old
                            world".
                            If any fellow scadiens do many projects with hand tools, you are
                            probabably more authentic than even the most conservative amish in my
                            area. (there are many different groups). Its not the Amish that
                            bother me at all, its the ignorant view that others show about them.
                            Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry and
                            cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that all
                            are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                            than any other stereotype you can think of.

                            I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is not
                            a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                            just present a logical view on the topic.
                            Jared
                          • James Winkler
                            ... market around here pays extra for Amish craftsmanship .
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                              >> I have nothing against them, but it just bugs me the way the
                              tourist
                              market around here pays extra for "Amish craftsmanship".  <<
                               
                              ... and therein lies the difference between 'real value' and perceived value.  As they said in Indy Jones... take a cheap watch, bury it in the sand for a few thousand years and it becomes priceless.  What's changed... only the 'perception of value/rarity/whatever pushes your personal psychological buttons' ...  most 'value' is in perception, hence the marketing tool of 'branding'...  
                               
                              ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                               
                              ... and then there's the consumer perception of "collectable" vs. the merchandising perception of "collectable" (I.e., "we can build more of em' than you can buy... but we dare ya' to try to keep up")...  BUT THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT RANT...
                               
                              I share yer' pain Jared...
                               
                              Chas.
                            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                              Is James Cunningham an Amish name? buttons ... What s in a name? ... in a lot of cases... well... a lot ...
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                                Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                                buttons' ... "What's in a name?" ... in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                              • James Winkler
                                Might be... heck I d be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! Chas.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 6, 2006
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                                  Might be... heck I'd be tempted to pay more for an original Cunningham... particularly if it was signed and numbered!!!! 
                                   
                                  Winking smiley emoticon
                                   
                                  Chas.
                                   
                                  =================================

                                   
                                  Is James Cunningham an Amish name?
                                  buttons' ... "What's in a name?" .. in a lot of cases... well...  'a lot'...
                                • julian wilson
                                  Jared wrote: If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                                    Jared <tudweber_jr@...> wrote:
                                    "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also beparticipating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                                        I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                                     
                                    COMMENT
                                    Jared,
                                    that's a most interesting Post.
                                     
                                    Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"



                                    Yours in Service,
                                    Matthew
                                    ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                                    Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]
                                    aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
                                    "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                    [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                                    Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org  >"
                                    -


                                    Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                                  • Eric
                                    Jared, Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar milling before, and
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 7, 2006
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                                      Jared,

                                      Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                                      were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                                      milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                                      material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                                      the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                                      though acquired experience.

                                      So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                                      specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                                      not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                                      when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                                      more reliable.

                                      Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                                      Eirikr

                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                                      > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                                      > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                                      > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                                      > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                                      let
                                      > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                                      > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                                      > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                                      > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                                      > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                                      > rest of us,....
                                      > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                                      and
                                      > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                                      all
                                      > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                                      > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                                      >
                                      > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                      not
                                      > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                                      > just present a logical view on the topic.
                                      > Jared
                                      >
                                    • Jared
                                      I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have been suurounded by
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                        I do not intend to ruffle any feathers, it is just that I have gained
                                        a greater insight on the various amish beliefs in my area since I have
                                        been suurounded by them. The ones next door to me are most
                                        conservative, thay wont even use covered buggies, thay go down the
                                        road when its below zero, holding an umbrella in front of them. They
                                        follow many other stringent rules, but they do ride in other peoples
                                        cars and come over to use my telephone, and like I said, use the same
                                        tools in thier cabinet shop as I do. All powered by a line shaft with
                                        a diesel engine at the end of the building. Another local sect is
                                        much less conservative and I know many of them how drink coffee, smoke
                                        or chew tobbacco, and converse casually and jokingly with others, I
                                        have no judgemental view on any of this, its just when you really look
                                        at it, some of them really live something of a life of reenactment,
                                        with certain provisions. Not disimilar from sca, were we follow
                                        certain rules that work for most, but not willing to give up all
                                        convieniences.
                                        This is a concept most of us could ponder, how inclined would we be
                                        to do things, authenticly, in period fashion, if we had to do it all
                                        the time, and the easy way was right there and available, all the time.
                                        The thing about any Amish work or woodwork, that people dont realize
                                        is that they will always do things as efficiently as they can within
                                        thier rules, they are not foolish, instead, fitting between the
                                        guidlines they live by makes them more inginuitive, they have to
                                        figure out how to modify all modern equiptment to run on stationary
                                        engines, or build thier own. The largest amish sawmill, a few miles
                                        from me, has a hydralic log clam mounted on a chasis with steel wheels
                                        drawn by a team of horses.
                                        The whole thing strikes me as one giant anochronism

                                        This is a far different view from many of my nieghbors, who have
                                        nothing good to say about them and are very unhappy that they moved
                                        into the valley. As far as I can tell this is nothing more than " I
                                        dont like them cause thier different" type of mentality. Myself, I
                                        would much rather have a neighbor who was bound to a life of honesty
                                        and hard work, than say, someone who intended to move in and start a
                                        meth lab ( thier quite the rage in wisconsin right now).

                                        As far as perception of Amish quality being tied to scripture, I
                                        dont know anyone who is really familiar with what scipture it is that
                                        dictates what amish live by, so I doubt its possble that any of the
                                        buyers have given it any thought whatsoever. I am very familiar with
                                        biblical scripture myself, and attempt to live by it, but I wouldnt
                                        say it decieds my quality of work, rather its my personal integrity
                                        that is attached to everything I make that holds me to quality. I
                                        feel personaly reaponsible for my work, and anyone who buys it should
                                        be happy with it, and it should work properly. Most likely this value
                                        of integrity comes from my christian upbringing, my father said and
                                        lived by, "anything worth doing is worth doing right". If an Amish
                                        man's dedication to quaility is tied to scripture, or tied to personal
                                        standards, I could not possibly say, its just that I doubt that most
                                        any of the consumers have ever consdered the manor with such depth.

                                        If the rest of the world could live by "all things done well"
                                        regardless of what god they believed in, if any, it would be a good start.
                                        . Jared
                                        Riesenweber


                                        about.MUCH SNIPPAGE
                                        > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                        nota view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend
                                        anyone,just present a logical view on the topic.
                                        > COMMENT
                                        > Jared,
                                        > that's a most interesting Post.
                                        >
                                        > Do you think that the perception of "Amish quality" might have
                                        something to do with their Tenets - "All things done well for the
                                        Glory of God"? - and - "Not unto us the praise, but unto God, who hath
                                        guided our unworthy hands in His Work?"
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yours in Service,
                                        > Matthew
                                        > ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
                                        > Motto - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for
                                        Peace, prepare for War") ]
                                        > aka. - Julian Wilson, - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald,
                                        Historian, & Master Artisan to
                                        > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                        > [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
                                        > Meet us at < www.dukesleopards.org >"
                                        > [input]
                                        > -
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide
                                        with voicemail
                                        >
                                      • Jared
                                        --Eirikr It s more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any statement 100%
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                          --Eirikr
                                          It's more that you inspired me to voice my opinion on the topic
                                          than that I am saying you were wrong. Very seldom is anyone, or any
                                          statement 100% right or wrong. Im not sure that you even need to
                                          stand to be corrected, since you show no ignorance whatsoever.
                                          Jared



                                          - In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Jared,
                                          >
                                          > Your point is well taken. I did make the assumption that if they
                                          > were milling green oak for sale, that they would have done similar
                                          > milling before, and also assumed that thay would have used the
                                          > material for their own purposes before and would be familiar with
                                          > the appropriate techniques, not genetically imprinted, but gained
                                          > though acquired experience.
                                          >
                                          > So, this is a good reminder to discuss people's experience with your
                                          > specific project in mind when considering getting help, paid or
                                          > not. One's perceived reputation or skill won't necessarily help
                                          > when deep in a project, past work and/or references are probably
                                          > more reliable.
                                          >
                                          > Standing corrected from positive prejudice,
                                          > Eirikr
                                          >
                                          > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Jared" <tudweber_jr@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > "If the woodworkers that are supplying the wood will also be
                                          > > participating in the build, you should have nothing to worry about.
                                          > > They've probably got more experience working with the lumber that
                                          > > you're ordering than anyone else you could find in this country.
                                          > > Though your building may look different than their typical work,
                                          > let
                                          > > them have free run on the techniques of the frame, they should be
                                          > > masters on this task compared to the combined experience from this
                                          > > board (no insult intended to anyone here)."
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Not that I am any expert on timberframe, but my next door
                                          > > neighbors are amish, and of course build thier own houses with larg
                                          > > groups of men very quickly. But they use milled 2x4s just like the
                                          > > rest of us,....
                                          > > Certainly a higher percentage of them have knowledge in carpentry
                                          > and
                                          > > cabnitry, than the rest of the general public, but To assume that
                                          > all
                                          > > are born with the talent to be a craftsman, is no more intelligent
                                          > > than any other stereotype you can think of.
                                          > >
                                          > > I hope I have put this well enough to assure that that this is
                                          > not
                                          > > a view of prejudice in any way, and I dont intend to offend anyone,
                                          > > just present a logical view on the topic.
                                          > > Jared
                                          > >
                                          >
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