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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Copyright Question

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  • Mark Schuldenfrei
    ... True. But what they are doing is not based upon copyright, but DMCA, which doesn t apply to the printed media we are talking about. :-) ... It isn t? Oh,
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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      > If commercial use or interest was the only factor, the RIAA/MPAA wouldn't
      > sueing nearly as many people as they are right now.

      True. But what they are doing is not based upon copyright,
      but DMCA, which doesn't apply to the printed media we are talking
      about. :-)

      > I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to justify
      > posting. I have two thoughts:
      > 1. This forum is not an educational institution

      It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something.

      > 2. What "research" goal is obtained by distributing it out to everyone on
      > the list.

      Teaching more about how to do medieval woodworking, I guess.
      Unless that is educational. :-)


      > Compare:
      > 1. Single person going to a library, getting a copy of the article
      > through ILL
      > (covers educational institution as it's a library, covers a single
      > person
      > doing research)
      > 2. Publishing an entire article to an entire email list.

      They are different. But are they different enough to transcend
      categories? I contend not.

      > Very true that someone won't get sued over this. The magazine wouldn't
      > want the bad press. However.. the MPAA/RIAA *has* won cases like this,
      > so there must be someone willing to litigate.

      Again, totally different issue related to DMCA. And they actually
      very rarely win, but often settle. From a friend of mine's web
      log - he's a professional in issues of media, rights and law, as
      well as an SCA person: ""The DRM, incompatibility and lawsuits" is a lot
      like a media generated "crime wave." It is getting reported more, but
      without any follow up on how customers respond and how lawsuits get
      tossed out."

      He wrote that 2/28/06. I trust his opinions, even casual ones,
      since he also does things like testify before government committees
      and so forth.

      Tibor
    • James Winkler
      ... as everybody has stated that they aren t lawyers... ergo, none of this constitutes legal advise or council , let s call this exchange what it is... a
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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        Winking smiley emoticon  ... as everybody has stated that they aren't lawyers... ergo, none of this  constitutes 'legal advise or council', let's call this exchange what it is...  a fundamentally emotional outflow of frustration over the mess that the 'New Millennium Copyright Law' put us in...
         
        If we're going to site "friends in the profession" let's give name and contact for validation... otherwise its just a 'friend of a friend of somebody I met in a bar one day"... 
         
        As to whether to publish or not... that is up to the poster and the list owner...  they're the one's who ultimately must answer the question...
         
        Chas.
      • Mark Schuldenfrei
        ... Digital Millennium Copyright Act. :-) We say that we are not lawyers, before we opine on law, for two reasons. One is that practicing law without a
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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          > Winking smiley emoticon ... as everybody has stated that they aren't
          > lawyers... ergo, none of this constitutes 'legal advise or council',
          > let's call this exchange what it is... a fundamentally emotional
          > outflow of frustration over the mess that the 'New Millennium Copyright
          > Law' put us in...

          Digital Millennium Copyright Act. :-)

          We say that we are not lawyers, before we opine on law, for two
          reasons. One is that practicing law without a license is illegal,
          so it is important to clarify that you are not doing so. The other
          is because I don't want people to give my words more (or less)
          weight than they are due.

          What it doesn't mean is that people are stupid or ignorant. :-)

          > If we're going to site "friends in the profession" let's give name and
          > contact for validation... otherwise its just a 'friend of a friend of
          > somebody I met in a bar one day"...

          Sigh. He did not render this opinion as a legal opinion, and it
          wasn't in a context of professional privilege. I happen to believe
          him, and he's very good. So, take this as "very knowledgeable person
          speaking off the cuff.

          Harold Feld, whose professional expertise can be found here.
          http://www.mediaaccess.org/about/people/index.html

          Please do not hold it against him that he is also Yaakov ha
          Mizrachi, and one of the best damned Poeta Atlantia's I have
          met... Or any sort of SCA poet.

          This was not a sock monkey, my friend. :-)

          Tibor
        • Don Eisele
          ... http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html Educational purposes means: * non-commercial instruction or curriculumbased
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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            >> I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to justify
            >> posting. I have two thoughts:
            >> 1. This forum is not an educational institution
            >
            >It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something.
            >
            >> 2. What "research" goal is obtained by distributing it out to everyone on
            >> the list.
            >
            >Teaching more about how to do medieval woodworking, I guess.
            >Unless that is educational. :-)

            http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html

            "Educational purposes" means:
            * non-commercial instruction or curriculumbased teaching by educators to students at nonprofit educational institutions
            * planned non-commercial study or investigation directed toward making a contribution to a field of knowledge, or
            * presentation of research findings at non-commercial peer conferences, workshops or seminars.



            --
            Don Quixote -- quixote@... http://toysmakeuspowerful.com
            "I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself"
          • Mark Schuldenfrei
            ... I think you misunderstood what you are referencing. That very useful source (which I have read and seen before) has a Chapter on a particular industry
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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              > http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html

              I think you misunderstood what you are referencing. That very useful
              source (which I have read and seen before) has a Chapter on a particular
              industry agreement that applies to institutions of higher learning.

              That chapter, which you cite, defines who it applies to and how to
              define an institution of higher learning, and what subsets of fair
              use the industry has generally agreed are completely free and clear.

              Or, as it says elsewhere:
              Since the current copyright law was adopted, various organizations and
              scholars have established guidelines for educational uses. These
              guidelines are not part of the Copyright Act. However, the guidelines
              establish the standards for uses and copying in education. These
              guidelines, as well as other regulations and rules regarding
              educational uses are summarized in Chapter 7, which deals with
              academic and educational permissions.

              But it is a subset of such rights, not an exclusive list of all
              available rights. For that, there is a different chapter of that
              book, Chapter 9, found here:
              http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

              I think you misunderstood the point of that publication.

              (For the student - was your quotation of that web site a violation
              of fair use? Is mine?)

              Tibor
            • Michael Houghton
              Howdy! ... That s incomplete. The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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                Howdy!

                On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 11:00:40AM -0500, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                > > > What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in
                > > > your analysis?
                > > > Tibor
                >
                > > None. I think 'Fair Use' would be the 'copy for your
                > > own personal use' example.
                >
                > I am not an attorney, and have no specific expertise. But my
                > plain reading of the law says to me that you are mistaken:
                >
                > ===================
                > § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
                >
                > Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
                > a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
                > phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
                > purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including
                > multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
                > infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
                > in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
                > include —
                >
                > (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
                > of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
                >
                > (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
                >
                > (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
                > copyrighted work as a whole; and
                >
                > (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
                > copyrighted work.
                >
                > The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
                > fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
                > factors.
                > ===================
                >
                > In this case the purpose is non-commercial, is research only, is just
                > one article from a magazine, and doesn't have a substantial impact
                > upon the market value of the magazine.

                That's incomplete.

                The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                market for reprints of that article.

                I think that makes a strong argument that the proposed action does not
                fall under "fair use".
                >
                > Whether the commercial nature of Yahoo and advertising affects this,
                > I cannot say.
                >
                > I'd put it up.

                I wouldn't.

                yours,
                Herveus

                --
                Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
                herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
                Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
                Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad
              • Eric
                I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV... I would argue that this board could be construed as a non-commercial peer conference, workshop or seminar. But
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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                  I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV...

                  I would argue that this board could be construed as a "non-commercial
                  peer conference, workshop or seminar.

                  But to be on the safe side, an intro should be written to frame the
                  article into our area of interest with perhaps a referrence to an
                  extant example and then insert the specific parts of the article that
                  would be important to us. With ample credit given to the article's
                  source, I would not think that there would be a problem.

                  If anyone with rights to the work disagreed, the posting could be
                  removed.

                  Eirikr Mjoksiglandi
                  Ulfsvikings, Barony of Angels, Caid

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Don Eisele <quixote@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >> I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to
                  justify
                  > >> posting. I have two thoughts:
                  > >> 1. This forum is not an educational institution
                  > >
                  > >It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something....
                  > >
                  http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-
                  b.html
                  >
                  > "Educational purposes" means:...
                  > * presentation of research findings at non-commercial peer
                  conferences, workshops or seminars.
                  >
                • Mark Schuldenfrei
                  ... Tay.... ... It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging. Are reprints available? Tibor PS Secret Cryptic Message - Liverpole Says Hi
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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                    > That's incomplete.

                    'Tay....


                    > The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                    > a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                    > as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                    > Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                    > market for reprints of that article.

                    It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging.

                    Are reprints available?

                    Tibor

                    PS Secret Cryptic Message - "Liverpole Says Hi"
                  • Michael Houghton
                    Howdy! ... The fact that the infringer is not profiting from the infringement does not make it not infringement . ... I don t know. The question is
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
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                      Howdy!

                      On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 01:19:27PM -0500, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                      > > That's incomplete.
                      >
                      > 'Tay....
                      >
                      >
                      > > The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                      > > a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                      > > as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                      > > Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                      > > market for reprints of that article.
                      >
                      > It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging.

                      The fact that the "infringer" is not profiting from the infringement
                      does not make it "not infringement".
                      >
                      > Are reprints available?
                      >
                      I don't know. The question is orthogonal to the fair use question.
                      >
                      > PS Secret Cryptic Message - "Liverpole Says Hi"
                      >
                      ahhh...

                      yours,
                      Herveus
                      --
                      Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
                      herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
                      Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
                      Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad
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