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Coopered Top

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  • Barbara Dodge
    I have found the article I recently read on coopering. The article is actually about coopering a door for a cabinet. The way I see it is a cabinet is but a
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 28, 2006
      I have found the article I recently read on coopering.  The article is actually about coopering a door for a cabinet.  The way I see it is a cabinet is but a chest set on end. 
       
      The article is in American Woodworker Magazine (August 1998).  So, here is a question for the masses.  If I scan the article and send it to the list, would this be a case of copyright infringement?  If it is permitted, should I send it as an attachment?  Thoughts, suggestions?
       
      Looking forward to some answers...
       
      Barb
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Christina
      Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 11:51 PM
      Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [MedievalSawdust] Cooper top

      Hi, this is my first post and hopefully someone will be able to help me out. One
      of my class mates in Woodshop is making a chest with a rounded top and so
      far no one has found useful directions on how exactly to do that. Him and the
      teacher have been calling it a "coopered top".  Does any one here have any
      experience with this type of thing or know where we could get more
      information on how to do it?
                                                    Thanks in advance for any help.

          Slaine O'Duinne
        House of Lost Soles
                  Caid



    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      ... I ve got an article also.... If you scan them, can you make the, PDF s? and place them into the files section of the email group page.... but as to
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 28, 2006
        --- Barbara Dodge <awench1@...> wrote:

        > I have found the article I recently read on
        > coopering. The article is actually about coopering
        > a door for a cabinet. The way I see it is a cabinet
        > is but a chest set on end.
        >
        > The article is in American Woodworker Magazine
        > (August 1998). So, here is a question for the
        > masses. If I scan the article and send it to the
        > list, would this be a case of copyright
        > infringement? If it is permitted, should I send it
        > as an attachment? Thoughts, suggestions?
        >



        I've got an article also....

        If you scan them, can you make the, PDF's?
        and place them into the files section of the
        email group page....

        but as to copyright infringment.....????

        I would think that as long as we do not profit
        from the electronic 'reprint' it should be ok
        so long as we give credit as to where it came from


        Anyone out there know if I'm wrong?

        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '

        __________________________________________________
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      • Barbara Dodge
        I believe you are right for the copyright issue, but if someone can confirm that, it would be great. As far as making it a PDF, I dunno. I ll have to talk to
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 28, 2006
          I believe you are right for the copyright issue, but if someone can confirm that, it would be great.
           
          As far as making it a PDF, I dunno.  I'll have to talk to my computer gurus at work.  All I can do is try.
           
          Barb
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:08 PM
          Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [MedievalSawdust] Coopered Top



          --- Barbara Dodge <awench1@...> wrote:

          > I have found the article I recently read on
          > coopering.  The article is actually about coopering
          > a door for a cabinet.  The way I see it is a cabinet
          > is but a chest set on end. 
          >
          > The article is in American Woodworker Magazine
          > (August 1998).  So, here is a question for the
          > masses.  If I scan the article and send it to the
          > list, would this be a case of copyright
          > infringement?  If it is permitted, should I send it
          > as an attachment?  Thoughts, suggestions?
          >



          I've got an article also....

          If you scan them, can you make the, PDF's?
          and place them into the files section of the
          email group page....

          but as to copyright infringment.....????

          I would think that as long as we do not profit
          from the electronic 'reprint' it should be ok
          so long as we give credit as to where it came from


          Anyone out there know if I'm wrong?

          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

             Aude Aliquid Dignum
               ' Dare Something Worthy '


        • Arthur Slaughter
          The book Boxes and Chests by Alan and Gil Bridgewater ISBN 0-8117-2559-6 Contains directions for making a coopered top for a chest. THL Finnr
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 28, 2006
            The book Boxes and Chests by Alan and Gil Bridgewater ISBN 0-8117-2559-6
            Contains directions for making a coopered top for a chest.
            THL Finnr

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • Don Eisele
            ... Copyright law is somewhat subjective. Making money off of it is certainly one of the factors used in general, and the one most likely to cause a lawsuit,
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 28, 2006
              >
              >but as to copyright infringment.....????
              >
              >I would think that as long as we do not profit
              >from the electronic 'reprint' it should be ok
              >so long as we give credit as to where it came from
              >
              >
              >Anyone out there know if I'm wrong?

              Copyright law is somewhat subjective. Making money off of it is certainly
              one of the factors used in general, and the one most likely to cause
              a lawsuit, but there are other factors as well.

              I think for articles in magazines, posting an entire article is probably
              not legal unless you are an educational institution (or a public library).

              Taking an article, duplicating a portion of it, and adding your own material
              to it to create a "transformative" work, would usually be ok under the
              "fair use" laws.

              Since libraries tend to have more leeway, one thing you can do is post
              detailed information on the article, and each individual can go out to
              their local library and request the article through inter-library loan.
              ILL is very, very, cool, and many libraries these days are on-line, and
              you can put the request through and only show up physically at the
              library to pick up what you ordered.

              This way there is no question about copyright issues.

              Generally what you might want to post would be (this is from my libraries
              electronic request page):
              Journal Title
              Volume number
              Issue Number
              Month/Season
              Year
              Pages of the article
              ISSN (Int'l. Standard Serial No.)
              Article Author
              Article Title


              For more info:
              http://fairuse.stanford.edu/
              Most specifically:
              http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html



              Here's a blurb at the bottom of my libraries ILL request page for articles:

              WARNING CONCERNING COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS

              The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted materials.

              Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be "used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research". If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excess of "fair use", that user may be liable for copyright infringement.

              This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law.


              (So the conclusion you can draw is that libraries can copyright most articles for people for private study, which would probably be legitimate for most things that would fall on this list)

              --
              Don Quixote -- quixote@... http://toysmakeuspowerful.com
              "I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself"
              WebSune Card search engine: http://toysmakeuspowerful.com/search
              Card auctions: http://imperialblock.com
              Surplus/Vintage Gaming stuff: http://toysmakeuspowerful.com/store
              Kansas Gamer: http://ksgamer.com
              my l5r trades: http://trade.mahasamatman.com/L5R/list_show.pl?user=eiseled
              AEG BH#1489
            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              ... Ok..... I m the list owner so I m probably the one to make the call.... Go ahead and post it, but don t let anyone give you any money ;) Baron Conal
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 1, 2006
                > (So the conclusion you can draw is that libraries
                > can copyright most articles for people for private
                > study, which would probably be legitimate for most
                > things that would fall on this list)
                >


                Ok..... I'm the list owner so I'm probably the one
                to make the call....

                Go ahead and post it, but don't let anyone give you
                any money ;)



                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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              • Flemish Lady
                IIRC, if you copy the Whole Article and make it available on the web, you will be infringing on American Woodworker Magazine s copyright. And possibly subject
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                  IIRC, if you copy the Whole Article and make it
                  available on the web, you will be infringing on
                  American Woodworker Magazine's copyright. And
                  possibly subject to fines and whatever else the law
                  says.

                  If you copy it from a library copy (or a friend's
                  copy) *for your own use*, you should be fine. But
                  copying it and making it available to the world on the
                  Internet is just like publishing it. Whether for
                  profit or not.

                  Now if you get permission from the magazine to
                  distribute the article in this way, then you should be
                  fine. But there would probably be some fees involved
                  and such.

                  As for me, I wouldn't do it.

                  Marthe Elsbeth
                  Not a Lawyer, but played a Legal Librarian once.

                  --- Barbara Dodge <awench1@...> wrote:

                  > I believe you are right for the copyright issue, but
                  > if someone can confirm that, it would be great.
                  >
                  > As far as making it a PDF, I dunno. I'll have to
                  > talk to my computer gurus at work. All I can do is
                  > try.
                  >
                  > Barb
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:08 PM
                  > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [MedievalSawdust]
                  > Coopered Top
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Barbara Dodge <awench1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have found the article I recently read on
                  > > coopering. The article is actually about
                  > coopering
                  > > a door for a cabinet. The way I see it is a
                  > cabinet
                  > > is but a chest set on end.
                  > >
                  > > The article is in American Woodworker Magazine
                  > > (August 1998). So, here is a question for the
                  > > masses. If I scan the article and send it to
                  > the
                  > > list, would this be a case of copyright
                  > > infringement? If it is permitted, should I send
                  > it
                  > > as an attachment? Thoughts, suggestions?
                  > >
                  >
                  > I've got an article also....
                  >
                  > If you scan them, can you make the, PDF's?
                  > and place them into the files section of the
                  > email group page....
                  >
                  > but as to copyright infringment.....????
                  >
                  > I would think that as long as we do not profit
                  > from the electronic 'reprint' it should be ok
                  > so long as we give credit as to where it came from
                  >
                  > Anyone out there know if I'm wrong?
                  >
                  > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                  >
                  > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  > ' Dare Something Worthy '


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • Mark Schuldenfrei
                  ... What weight would the Fair Use Exception have in your analysis? Tibor
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                    > IIRC, if you copy the Whole Article and make it
                    > available on the web, you will be infringing on
                    > American Woodworker Magazine's copyright. And
                    > possibly subject to fines and whatever else the law
                    > says.

                    What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in your
                    analysis?

                    Tibor
                  • Flemish Lady
                    ... None. I think Fair Use would be the copy for your own personal use example. IMHO, Marthe Elsbeth __________________________________________________ Do
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                      --- Mark Schuldenfrei <mark@...> wrote:

                      > > IIRC, if you copy the Whole Article and make it
                      > > available on the web, you will be infringing on
                      > > American Woodworker Magazine's copyright. And
                      > > possibly subject to fines and whatever else the
                      > law
                      > > says.
                      >
                      > What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in
                      > your analysis?
                      >
                      > Tibor

                      None. I think 'Fair Use' would be the 'copy for your
                      own personal use' example.

                      IMHO,
                      Marthe Elsbeth


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                    • Mark Schuldenfrei
                      ... I am not an attorney, and have no specific expertise. But my plain reading of the law says to me that you are mistaken: =================== § 107.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                        > > What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in
                        > > your analysis?
                        > > Tibor

                        > None. I think 'Fair Use' would be the 'copy for your
                        > own personal use' example.

                        I am not an attorney, and have no specific expertise. But my
                        plain reading of the law says to me that you are mistaken:

                        ===================
                        § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

                        Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
                        a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
                        phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
                        purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including
                        multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
                        infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
                        in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
                        include —

                        (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
                        of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

                        (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

                        (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
                        copyrighted work as a whole; and

                        (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
                        copyrighted work.

                        The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
                        fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
                        factors.
                        ===================

                        In this case the purpose is non-commercial, is research only, is just
                        one article from a magazine, and doesn't have a substantial impact
                        upon the market value of the magazine.

                        Whether the commercial nature of Yahoo and advertising affects this,
                        I cannot say.

                        I'd put it up.

                        Tibor
                      • Mark Schuldenfrei
                        To our Moderators, and others. For questions on copyright (since in the end, you ll be making your own decision) the US web site I start with is often
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                          To our Moderators, and others.

                          For questions on copyright (since in the end, you'll be making your
                          own decision) the US web site I start with is often
                          http://www.copyright.gov

                          Tibor
                        • Ld. Robin Gallowglass
                          ... I have to disagree with you Tibor. There s actually, as I understand it, two interlocking copyrights that have to be addresses. Each article typically
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                            On Thursday 02 March 2006 11:00, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                            > > > What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in
                            > > > your analysis?
                            > > > Tibor
                            > >
                            > > None. I think 'Fair Use' would be the 'copy for your
                            > > own personal use' example.
                            >
                            > I am not an attorney, and have no specific expertise. But my
                            > plain reading of the law says to me that you are mistaken:

                            > In this case the purpose is non-commercial, is research only, is just
                            > one article from a magazine, and doesn't have a substantial impact
                            > upon the market value of the magazine.

                            I have to disagree with you Tibor. There's actually, as I understand it, two
                            interlocking copyrights that have to be addresses. Each article typically
                            has it's own copyright and the author has given the magazine exclusive or
                            non-exclusive publication rights. The second is the copyright of the
                            magazine as a compilation. Reprinting the whole article on this or any
                            mailing list, in my opinion, would _NOT_ be fair use of the copyrighted
                            article.

                            >
                            > Whether the commercial nature of Yahoo and advertising affects this,
                            > I cannot say.
                            >
                            > I'd put it up.
                            >
                            > Tibor

                            Robin
                          • Mark Schuldenfrei
                            ... But, the same reasoning applies to both copyrights, in parallel. Tibor
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                              > I have to disagree with you Tibor. There's actually, as I understand it, two
                              > interlocking copyrights that have to be addresses. Each article typically
                              > has it's own copyright and the author has given the magazine exclusive or
                              > non-exclusive publication rights.

                              But, the same reasoning applies to both copyrights, in parallel.

                              Tibor
                            • Ld. Robin Gallowglass
                              ... But the copyright on the article is the more specific copyright and takes precedent, as I understand it. Copyright is tricky and slippery, and not even
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                On Thursday 02 March 2006 11:47, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                                > > I have to disagree with you Tibor. There's actually, as I understand it,
                                > > two interlocking copyrights that have to be addresses. Each article
                                > > typically has it's own copyright and the author has given the magazine
                                > > exclusive or non-exclusive publication rights.
                                >
                                > But, the same reasoning applies to both copyrights, in parallel.

                                But the copyright on the article is the more specific copyright and takes
                                precedent, as I understand it.

                                Copyright is tricky and slippery, and not even copyright lawyers can agree on
                                some things. My advice is better safe than sorry and _NOT_ put it up.

                                >
                                > Tibor
                                >

                                Robin
                              • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                ... I ve read a bit on the topic - never heard that analysis or language before. The author has rights, which he or she can sell, waive or keep. If the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                  > But the copyright on the article is the more specific copyright and takes
                                  > precedent, as I understand it.

                                  I've read a bit on the topic - never heard that analysis or language
                                  before.

                                  The author has rights, which he or she can sell, waive or keep. If
                                  the article appears in a magazine, there is obviously (hopefully) a
                                  legal agreement between the two parties giving the right to make
                                  copies to the magazine. Perhaps even assigning the entire copyright
                                  to the magazine. Or something in between.

                                  But, for purposes of fair use, it does not matter at all who holds
                                  the copyright - only what your use of it is for, and what your use
                                  does to their commercial rights.

                                  In this case, there is ZERO commercial use or interest.


                                  > Copyright is tricky and slippery, and not even copyright lawyers can agree on
                                  > some things. My advice is better safe than sorry and _NOT_ put it up.

                                  While there are some interesting edge cases, most copyright lawyers
                                  seem to have basic understandings of the simple cases like this one.
                                  I'm not one of them. But I think that:

                                  1. There is a Fair Use exemption here.

                                  2. Even if the end result is to violate a copyright or if one of the
                                  copyright holders wants you to THINK that there is - they will
                                  send a cease and desist letter, and it can be taken down.

                                  3. No one in their right mind would litigate this, even as a
                                  copyright holder - it is not clear one would win, not clear
                                  there are damages to be won, or that anyone would pay them.

                                  Tibor
                                • Ld. Robin Gallowglass
                                  ... I disagree with you, so I guess we re going to have to agree to disagree. ... Personally, being a copyright holder that has had his work infringed on many
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                    On Thursday 02 March 2006 11:59, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:

                                    > 1. There is a Fair Use exemption here.

                                    I disagree with you, so I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

                                    >
                                    > 2. Even if the end result is to violate a copyright or if one of the
                                    > copyright holders wants you to THINK that there is - they will
                                    > send a cease and desist letter, and it can be taken down.

                                    Personally, being a copyright holder that has had his work infringed on many
                                    times, albeit inadvertently due to lack of understand of copyright, I like to
                                    err on the side of not doing anything that can potentially be a copyright
                                    violation. But that's me :)

                                    >
                                    > 3. No one in their right mind would litigate this, even as a
                                    > copyright holder - it is not clear one would win, not clear
                                    > there are damages to be won, or that anyone would pay them.

                                    That's not a risk I'd be willing to take. Anybody can sue anybody for what
                                    ever reason, no matter how ridiculous. There are many, many examples of it,
                                    as you more than likely know.

                                    >
                                    > Tibor
                                    >

                                    Robin
                                  • Don Eisele
                                    ... If commercial use or interest was the only factor, the RIAA/MPAA wouldn t sueing nearly as many people as they are right now. I think you are trying to use
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                      >The author has rights, which he or she can sell, waive or keep. If
                                      >the article appears in a magazine, there is obviously (hopefully) a
                                      >legal agreement between the two parties giving the right to make
                                      >copies to the magazine. Perhaps even assigning the entire copyright
                                      >to the magazine. Or something in between.
                                      >
                                      >But, for purposes of fair use, it does not matter at all who holds
                                      >the copyright - only what your use of it is for, and what your use
                                      >does to their commercial rights.
                                      >
                                      >In this case, there is ZERO commercial use or interest.

                                      If commercial use or interest was the only factor, the RIAA/MPAA wouldn't
                                      sueing nearly as many people as they are right now.

                                      I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to justify
                                      posting. I have two thoughts:
                                      1. This forum is not an educational institution
                                      2. What "research" goal is obtained by distributing it out to everyone on
                                      the list.

                                      Compare:
                                      1. Single person going to a library, getting a copy of the article through ILL
                                      (covers educational institution as it's a library, covers a single person
                                      doing research)
                                      2. Publishing an entire article to an entire email list.

                                      >3. No one in their right mind would litigate this, even as a
                                      > copyright holder - it is not clear one would win, not clear
                                      > there are damages to be won, or that anyone would pay them.

                                      Very true that someone won't get sued over this. The magazine wouldn't
                                      want the bad press. However.. the MPAA/RIAA *has* won cases like this,
                                      so there must be someone willing to litigate.


                                      --
                                      Don Quixote -- quixote@... http://toysmakeuspowerful.com
                                      "I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself"
                                    • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                      ... True. But what they are doing is not based upon copyright, but DMCA, which doesn t apply to the printed media we are talking about. :-) ... It isn t? Oh,
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                        > If commercial use or interest was the only factor, the RIAA/MPAA wouldn't
                                        > sueing nearly as many people as they are right now.

                                        True. But what they are doing is not based upon copyright,
                                        but DMCA, which doesn't apply to the printed media we are talking
                                        about. :-)

                                        > I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to justify
                                        > posting. I have two thoughts:
                                        > 1. This forum is not an educational institution

                                        It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something.

                                        > 2. What "research" goal is obtained by distributing it out to everyone on
                                        > the list.

                                        Teaching more about how to do medieval woodworking, I guess.
                                        Unless that is educational. :-)


                                        > Compare:
                                        > 1. Single person going to a library, getting a copy of the article
                                        > through ILL
                                        > (covers educational institution as it's a library, covers a single
                                        > person
                                        > doing research)
                                        > 2. Publishing an entire article to an entire email list.

                                        They are different. But are they different enough to transcend
                                        categories? I contend not.

                                        > Very true that someone won't get sued over this. The magazine wouldn't
                                        > want the bad press. However.. the MPAA/RIAA *has* won cases like this,
                                        > so there must be someone willing to litigate.

                                        Again, totally different issue related to DMCA. And they actually
                                        very rarely win, but often settle. From a friend of mine's web
                                        log - he's a professional in issues of media, rights and law, as
                                        well as an SCA person: ""The DRM, incompatibility and lawsuits" is a lot
                                        like a media generated "crime wave." It is getting reported more, but
                                        without any follow up on how customers respond and how lawsuits get
                                        tossed out."

                                        He wrote that 2/28/06. I trust his opinions, even casual ones,
                                        since he also does things like testify before government committees
                                        and so forth.

                                        Tibor
                                      • James Winkler
                                        ... as everybody has stated that they aren t lawyers... ergo, none of this constitutes legal advise or council , let s call this exchange what it is... a
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                          Winking smiley emoticon  ... as everybody has stated that they aren't lawyers... ergo, none of this  constitutes 'legal advise or council', let's call this exchange what it is...  a fundamentally emotional outflow of frustration over the mess that the 'New Millennium Copyright Law' put us in...
                                           
                                          If we're going to site "friends in the profession" let's give name and contact for validation... otherwise its just a 'friend of a friend of somebody I met in a bar one day"... 
                                           
                                          As to whether to publish or not... that is up to the poster and the list owner...  they're the one's who ultimately must answer the question...
                                           
                                          Chas.
                                        • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                          ... Digital Millennium Copyright Act. :-) We say that we are not lawyers, before we opine on law, for two reasons. One is that practicing law without a
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                            > Winking smiley emoticon ... as everybody has stated that they aren't
                                            > lawyers... ergo, none of this constitutes 'legal advise or council',
                                            > let's call this exchange what it is... a fundamentally emotional
                                            > outflow of frustration over the mess that the 'New Millennium Copyright
                                            > Law' put us in...

                                            Digital Millennium Copyright Act. :-)

                                            We say that we are not lawyers, before we opine on law, for two
                                            reasons. One is that practicing law without a license is illegal,
                                            so it is important to clarify that you are not doing so. The other
                                            is because I don't want people to give my words more (or less)
                                            weight than they are due.

                                            What it doesn't mean is that people are stupid or ignorant. :-)

                                            > If we're going to site "friends in the profession" let's give name and
                                            > contact for validation... otherwise its just a 'friend of a friend of
                                            > somebody I met in a bar one day"...

                                            Sigh. He did not render this opinion as a legal opinion, and it
                                            wasn't in a context of professional privilege. I happen to believe
                                            him, and he's very good. So, take this as "very knowledgeable person
                                            speaking off the cuff.

                                            Harold Feld, whose professional expertise can be found here.
                                            http://www.mediaaccess.org/about/people/index.html

                                            Please do not hold it against him that he is also Yaakov ha
                                            Mizrachi, and one of the best damned Poeta Atlantia's I have
                                            met... Or any sort of SCA poet.

                                            This was not a sock monkey, my friend. :-)

                                            Tibor
                                          • Don Eisele
                                            ... http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html Educational purposes means: * non-commercial instruction or curriculumbased
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                              >> I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to justify
                                              >> posting. I have two thoughts:
                                              >> 1. This forum is not an educational institution
                                              >
                                              >It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something.
                                              >
                                              >> 2. What "research" goal is obtained by distributing it out to everyone on
                                              >> the list.
                                              >
                                              >Teaching more about how to do medieval woodworking, I guess.
                                              >Unless that is educational. :-)

                                              http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html

                                              "Educational purposes" means:
                                              * non-commercial instruction or curriculumbased teaching by educators to students at nonprofit educational institutions
                                              * planned non-commercial study or investigation directed toward making a contribution to a field of knowledge, or
                                              * presentation of research findings at non-commercial peer conferences, workshops or seminars.



                                              --
                                              Don Quixote -- quixote@... http://toysmakeuspowerful.com
                                              "I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself"
                                            • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                              ... I think you misunderstood what you are referencing. That very useful source (which I have read and seen before) has a Chapter on a particular industry
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                                > http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html

                                                I think you misunderstood what you are referencing. That very useful
                                                source (which I have read and seen before) has a Chapter on a particular
                                                industry agreement that applies to institutions of higher learning.

                                                That chapter, which you cite, defines who it applies to and how to
                                                define an institution of higher learning, and what subsets of fair
                                                use the industry has generally agreed are completely free and clear.

                                                Or, as it says elsewhere:
                                                Since the current copyright law was adopted, various organizations and
                                                scholars have established guidelines for educational uses. These
                                                guidelines are not part of the Copyright Act. However, the guidelines
                                                establish the standards for uses and copying in education. These
                                                guidelines, as well as other regulations and rules regarding
                                                educational uses are summarized in Chapter 7, which deals with
                                                academic and educational permissions.

                                                But it is a subset of such rights, not an exclusive list of all
                                                available rights. For that, there is a different chapter of that
                                                book, Chapter 9, found here:
                                                http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

                                                I think you misunderstood the point of that publication.

                                                (For the student - was your quotation of that web site a violation
                                                of fair use? Is mine?)

                                                Tibor
                                              • Michael Houghton
                                                Howdy! ... That s incomplete. The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                                  Howdy!

                                                  On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 11:00:40AM -0500, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                                                  > > > What weight would the "Fair Use Exception" have in
                                                  > > > your analysis?
                                                  > > > Tibor
                                                  >
                                                  > > None. I think 'Fair Use' would be the 'copy for your
                                                  > > own personal use' example.
                                                  >
                                                  > I am not an attorney, and have no specific expertise. But my
                                                  > plain reading of the law says to me that you are mistaken:
                                                  >
                                                  > ===================
                                                  > § 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
                                                  >
                                                  > Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of
                                                  > a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
                                                  > phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
                                                  > purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including
                                                  > multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an
                                                  > infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work
                                                  > in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall
                                                  > include —
                                                  >
                                                  > (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is
                                                  > of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
                                                  >
                                                  > (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
                                                  >
                                                  > (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
                                                  > copyrighted work as a whole; and
                                                  >
                                                  > (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
                                                  > copyrighted work.
                                                  >
                                                  > The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
                                                  > fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
                                                  > factors.
                                                  > ===================
                                                  >
                                                  > In this case the purpose is non-commercial, is research only, is just
                                                  > one article from a magazine, and doesn't have a substantial impact
                                                  > upon the market value of the magazine.

                                                  That's incomplete.

                                                  The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                                                  a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                                                  as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                                                  Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                                                  market for reprints of that article.

                                                  I think that makes a strong argument that the proposed action does not
                                                  fall under "fair use".
                                                  >
                                                  > Whether the commercial nature of Yahoo and advertising affects this,
                                                  > I cannot say.
                                                  >
                                                  > I'd put it up.

                                                  I wouldn't.

                                                  yours,
                                                  Herveus

                                                  --
                                                  Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
                                                  herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
                                                  Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
                                                  Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad
                                                • Eric
                                                  I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV... I would argue that this board could be construed as a non-commercial peer conference, workshop or seminar. But
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                                    I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV...

                                                    I would argue that this board could be construed as a "non-commercial
                                                    peer conference, workshop or seminar.

                                                    But to be on the safe side, an intro should be written to frame the
                                                    article into our area of interest with perhaps a referrence to an
                                                    extant example and then insert the specific parts of the article that
                                                    would be important to us. With ample credit given to the article's
                                                    source, I would not think that there would be a problem.

                                                    If anyone with rights to the work disagreed, the posting could be
                                                    removed.

                                                    Eirikr Mjoksiglandi
                                                    Ulfsvikings, Barony of Angels, Caid

                                                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Don Eisele <quixote@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >> I think you are trying to use the educational/research clause to
                                                    justify
                                                    > >> posting. I have two thoughts:
                                                    > >> 1. This forum is not an educational institution
                                                    > >
                                                    > >It isn't? Oh, drat, I wanted to learn something....
                                                    > >
                                                    http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-
                                                    b.html
                                                    >
                                                    > "Educational purposes" means:...
                                                    > * presentation of research findings at non-commercial peer
                                                    conferences, workshops or seminars.
                                                    >
                                                  • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                                    ... Tay.... ... It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging. Are reprints available? Tibor PS Secret Cryptic Message - Liverpole Says Hi
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                                      > That's incomplete.

                                                      'Tay....


                                                      > The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                                                      > a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                                                      > as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                                                      > Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                                                      > market for reprints of that article.

                                                      It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging.

                                                      Are reprints available?

                                                      Tibor

                                                      PS Secret Cryptic Message - "Liverpole Says Hi"
                                                    • Michael Houghton
                                                      Howdy! ... The fact that the infringer is not profiting from the infringement does not make it not infringement . ... I don t know. The question is
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 2, 2006
                                                        Howdy!

                                                        On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 01:19:27PM -0500, Mark Schuldenfrei wrote:
                                                        > > That's incomplete.
                                                        >
                                                        > 'Tay....
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > > The proposed action would be the republication of the entire article in
                                                        > > a manner that is not clearly limited to nonprofit educational purposes
                                                        > > as, say, distributing a limited number of copies to students in a class.
                                                        > > Further, that republication could be seen as gutting the potential
                                                        > > market for reprints of that article.
                                                        >
                                                        > It is nonprofit in the sense that no one here is charging.

                                                        The fact that the "infringer" is not profiting from the infringement
                                                        does not make it "not infringement".
                                                        >
                                                        > Are reprints available?
                                                        >
                                                        I don't know. The question is orthogonal to the fair use question.
                                                        >
                                                        > PS Secret Cryptic Message - "Liverpole Says Hi"
                                                        >
                                                        ahhh...

                                                        yours,
                                                        Herveus
                                                        --
                                                        Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
                                                        herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
                                                        Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
                                                        Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad
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