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Glueing Green oak?

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  • julian wilson
    Glueing green oak? Last year, the Construction Company I mainly work-for, converted a 400yr-old, granite, farm-outbuilding into a 3-bedroomed cottage - [ Black
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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      Glueing green oak?
      Last year, the Construction Company I mainly work-for, converted a 400yr-old, granite, farm-outbuilding into a 3-bedroomed cottage - ["Black Butter Cottage" ] - for the Farm Owner's son, who was getting married.
      So old a building - even though it had never been a dwelling, - had "Listed" Status.
      The Historic Conservation Requirements called for the use of oak for main 1st-floor beams and joists, as were all doors, windows, panelling, skirtings architraves, staircase, &c.
      The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, - and was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have classed all that oak as "green"!
      However, installation needed to go-ahead despite the Contractor's misgivings, in order to have the cottage ready to be handed-over prior to the Wedding Date.
      We routinely-use a polyurathene expanding, foaming wood-glue produced by "Geocell" in tube form (like that for silicone sealants) , and marketed in the UK under the Trade Name of "Joiner's Mate" - and it worked as well on this "green oak" as it does on normal construction-grade pine. I.e, - the glue-bond is mostly stronger than the timber. All I can tell you is that we had no problems using Joiners' Mate for all the "2nd-Fix" joinery at the cottage.
      Do you have this glue-type  available to you on the US Market? It's far more economic, and faster-setting - than ordinary PVA-based adhesives for use on timber.
       
      Julian Wilson,
      Master Carpenter,
      in the Island of "olde" Jersey..


       


      Yours in Service,
      Matthew
      ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497:
      Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]
      aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
      "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
      [the Island of "olde" Jersey's only mediæval living-history Group]
      Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org  >"
      -


      Play Santa's Celebrity Xmas Party, an exclusive game from Yahoo!
    • Chuck Phillips
      Julian; Polyurethane glues have been available here for some time. I think the first on the mass market was Gorilla Glue . I m not the least bit surprised
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Julian;

         

        Polyurethane glues have been available here for some time.  I think the first on the mass market was “Gorilla Glue”.  I’m not the least bit surprised that it worked well on your green timbers, as the reaction is catalyzed by water…

         

        The biggest downside for me is that it’s a lot messier than PVA glues.  I always wear gloves when applying it, and the foamy excess can be a pain.

         

        Charles Joiner

         


        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson
        Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:57 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Glueing Green oak?

         

        Glueing green oak?

        Last year, the Construction Company I mainly work-for, converted a 400yr-old, granite, farm-outbuilding into a 3-bedroomed cottage - ["Black Butter Cottage" ] - for the Farm Owner's son, who was getting married.

        So old a building - even though it had never been a dwelling, - had "Listed" Status.

        The Historic Conservation Requirements called for the use of oak for main 1st-floor beams and joists, as were all doors, windows, panelling, skirtings architraves, staircase, &c.

        The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK , - and was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have classed all that oak as "green"!

        However, installation needed to go-ahead despite the Contractor's misgivings, in order to have the cottage ready to be handed-over prior to the Wedding Date.

        We routinely-use a polyurathene expanding, foaming wood-glue produced by "Geocell" in tube form (like that for silicone sealants) , and marketed in the UK under the Trade Name of "Joiner's Mate" - and it worked as well on this "green oak" as it does on normal construction-grade pine. I.e, - the glue-bond is mostly stronger than the timber. All I can tell you is that we had no problems using Joiners' Mate for all the "2nd-Fix" joinery at the cottage.

        Do you have this glue-type  available to you on the US Market? It's far more economic, and faster-setting - than ordinary PVA-based adhesives for use on timber.

         

        Julian Wilson,

        Master Carpenter,

        in the Island of "olde" Jersey ..



         

         

        Yours in Service,

        Matthew

        ["Messire Matthew Baker", Governor & Castellan of Jersey , 1486-1497:

        Motto  - "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Trans:-"if you wish for Peace, prepare for War") ]

        aka. - Julian Wilson,  - late-medieval Re-enactor; Herald, Historian, & Master Artisan to
        "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
        [the Island of "olde" Jersey 's only mediæval living-history Group]
        Meet us at <  www.dukesleopards.org 

        >"

        -


        Play Santa's Celebrity Xmas Party, an exclusive game from Yahoo!

      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
        At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US seasoned wood can go to 6-9%. If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off. James
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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          At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US seasoned wood can go to 6-9%.  If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off.
           
          James Cunningham
          Snip
          The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, - and was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have classed all that oak as "green"!
          Snip
        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
          ... Gorilla Glue - http://www.gorillaglue.com/home.htm Titebond Polyurethane Glue -
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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            > Do you have this glue-type available to you on
            > the US Market? It's far more economic, and
            > faster-setting - than ordinary PVA-based adhesives
            > for use on timber.
            >
            > Julian Wilson,
            > Master Carpenter,
            > in the Island of "olde" Jersey..
            >

            Gorilla Glue - http://www.gorillaglue.com/home.htm

            Titebond Polyurethane Glue -
            http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1

            These glues react with moisture to cure. They
            recommend
            wiping the surface with a damp rag sometimes. If you
            have
            not used a poly glue before, try it on some scraps (
            It
            foams up as it cures, you want to get an idea how much
            glue
            you need and how much foam you will get. )



            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

            Aude Aliquid Dignum
            ' Dare Something Worthy '



            __________________________________________
            Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
            Just $16.99/mo. or less.
            dsl.yahoo.com
          • Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
            ... I am not sure of the percentage of water, but I consider wood to be green when it was cut down that morning and I am splitting it in the afternoon. We
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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              On Wed, January 4, 2006 16:20, James W. Pratt, Jr. said:
              > At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US seasoned
              > wood can go to 6-9%. If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off.

              I am not sure of the percentage of water, but I consider wood to be
              'green' when it was cut down that morning and I am splitting it in the
              afternoon. We get our best turning done on that first day. We now
              immediately put all the split pieces into barrels of water and keep them
              there, for up to a year, so that we can have 'green' wood all year long
              and make the most use of the tree. At this level of 'green', it is so wet
              that it splashes you in the face as the lathe tools are shaving it down.

              I have seen people in the construction trades refer to wood being green
              when barely any moisture is evident in comparison to where we work it. It
              seems to apply to anything that wasn't kiln dried, but simply stickered
              for a season or two.

              Haraldr

              >
              > James Cunningham
              > Snip
              > The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, - and
              > was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when
              > the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have
              > classed all that oak as "green"!
              > Snip


              --
              Dave Calafrancesco

              ... They got the library at Alexandria, they aren't getting mine!
            • Bill McNutt
              Ok, yup. That s green. For me, green is over 10% on the moisture meter. Master Will http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood _____ From:
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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                Ok, yup.  That’s “green.”

                 

                For me, “green” is over 10% on the moisture meter.

                 


                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
                Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 11:21 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Glueing Green oak?

                 


                On Wed, January 4, 2006 16:20, James W. Pratt, Jr. said:
                > At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US seasoned
                > wood can go to 6-9%.  If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off.

                I am not sure of the percentage of water, but I consider wood to be
                'green' when it was cut down that morning and I am splitting it in the
                afternoon. We get our best turning done on that first day. We now
                immediately put all the split pieces into barrels of water and keep them
                there, for up to a year, so that we can have 'green' wood all year long
                and make the most use of the tree. At this level of 'green', it is so wet
                that it splashes you in the face as the lathe tools are shaving it down.

                I have seen people in the construction trades refer to wood being green
                when barely any moisture is evident in comparison to where we work it. It
                seems to apply to anything that wasn't kiln dried, but simply stickered
                for a season or two.

                Haraldr

                >
                > James Cunningham
                > Snip
                >   The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, - and
                > was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when
                > the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have
                > classed all that oak as "green"!
                >   Snip


                --
                Dave Calafrancesco

                ... They got the library at Alexandria, they aren't getting mine!


              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                Yep that is what I would call green wood!! Now I know what page we are on! Do you turn for Winsor Chairs? I have heard that you turn in the green then dry
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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                  Yep that is what I would call green wood!! Now I know what page we are on!
                  Do you turn for "Winsor" Chairs? I have heard that you turn in the green
                  then dry in the oven then put the extra dry turnings into geen wood hole.
                  The follow up question is how old the technique is?

                  > On Wed, January 4, 2006 16:20, James W. Pratt, Jr. said:
                  > > At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US
                  seasoned
                  > > wood can go to 6-9%. If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off.
                  >
                  > I am not sure of the percentage of water, but I consider wood to be
                  > 'green' when it was cut down that morning and I am splitting it in the
                  > afternoon. We get our best turning done on that first day. We now
                  > immediately put all the split pieces into barrels of water and keep them
                  > there, for up to a year, so that we can have 'green' wood all year long
                  > and make the most use of the tree. At this level of 'green', it is so wet
                  > that it splashes you in the face as the lathe tools are shaving it down.
                  >
                  > I have seen people in the construction trades refer to wood being green
                  > when barely any moisture is evident in comparison to where we work it. It
                  > seems to apply to anything that wasn't kiln dried, but simply stickered
                  > for a season or two.
                  >
                  > Haraldr
                  >
                  > >
                  > > James Cunningham
                  > > Snip
                  > > The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, - and
                  > > was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when
                  > > the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have
                  > > classed all that oak as "green"!
                  > > Snip
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Dave Calafrancesco
                  >
                  > ... They got the library at Alexandria, they aren't getting mine!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • kjworz@comcast.net
                  Answer, very old. Citation from supporting texts or archaelogical evidence... Very little. The four legged stools found in Chinnery s Oak Furniture, were
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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                    Answer, very old.

                    Citation from supporting texts or archaelogical evidence... Very little.

                    The four legged stools found in Chinnery's Oak Furniture, were probably all joined with wet wood. See www.greenwoodworking.com for a treatise on this. Oak Furniture has dated examples from late period certainly.


                    --
                    -Chris Schwartz
                    Silver Spring, MD

                    -------------- Original message ----------------------
                    From: "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...>
                    > Yep that is what I would call green wood!! Now I know what page we are on!
                    > Do you turn for "Winsor" Chairs? I have heard that you turn in the green
                    > then dry in the oven then put the extra dry turnings into geen wood hole.
                    > The follow up question is how old the technique is?
                    >
                    > >
                  • Haraldr Bassi (yahoogroups)
                    Nope, been doing strictly viking age wood turning, spindles, bowls and cups, without a tool rest using repro viking age turning tools. If you get to Pennsic
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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                      Nope, been doing strictly viking age wood turning, spindles, bowls and
                      cups, without a tool rest using repro viking age turning tools. If you get
                      to Pennsic you might have seen us with the lathe setup. Down the hill from
                      the Runestone behind Cariadoc's camp, in a camp called Budgardr (Tent
                      village in old norse).

                      From what I recall, mid to late 1600's to early 1700's is as far back as I
                      could put windsor chairs. Perhaps someone has more info than I, as I have
                      really only looked at it from a perspective of wanting to get them for my
                      dining room at home and not in a re-enactor context.

                      Haraldr


                      On Thu, January 5, 2006 12:33, James W. Pratt, Jr. said:
                      > Yep that is what I would call green wood!! Now I know what page we are
                      > on!
                      > Do you turn for "Winsor" Chairs? I have heard that you turn in the green
                      > then dry in the oven then put the extra dry turnings into geen wood hole.
                      > The follow up question is how old the technique is?
                      >
                      >> On Wed, January 4, 2006 16:20, James W. Pratt, Jr. said:
                      >> > At what water percentage do you classify wood as Green? In the US
                      > seasoned
                      >> > wood can go to 6-9%. If dried wood gets rained on all bets are off.
                      >>
                      >> I am not sure of the percentage of water, but I consider wood to be
                      >> 'green' when it was cut down that morning and I am splitting it in the
                      >> afternoon. We get our best turning done on that first day. We now
                      >> immediately put all the split pieces into barrels of water and keep them
                      >> there, for up to a year, so that we can have 'green' wood all year long
                      >> and make the most use of the tree. At this level of 'green', it is so
                      >> wet
                      >> that it splashes you in the face as the lathe tools are shaving it down.
                      >>
                      >> I have seen people in the construction trades refer to wood being green
                      >> when barely any moisture is evident in comparison to where we work it.
                      >> It
                      >> seems to apply to anything that wasn't kiln dried, but simply stickered
                      >> for a season or two.
                      >>
                      >> Haraldr
                      >>
                      >> >
                      >> > James Cunningham
                      >> > Snip
                      >> > The oak came from a French source - much cheaper than in the UK, -
                      >> and
                      >> > was supposed to be seasoned; - but we did moisture-content checks when
                      >> > the shipment arrived, prior to starting installation - and I'd have
                      >> > classed all that oak as "green"!
                      >> > Snip
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> --
                      >> Dave Calafrancesco
                      >>
                      >> ... They got the library at Alexandria, they aren't getting mine!
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Dave Calafrancesco

                      ... They got the library at Alexandria, they aren't getting mine!
                    • C N Schwartz
                      There is some indication that the Welsh style chairs were a precursor to the Windsor form. Elm construction throughout, often shaved parts rather than turned,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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                        There is some indication that the Welsh style chairs were a precursor to the
                        Windsor form. Elm construction throughout, often shaved parts rather than
                        turned, and they look 'cruder' though I like the look. But no definite
                        dates other than "before" Windsors.

                        Other forms to stick chairs and stools go way back, if illustrations from
                        old bibles are any indicator, but these are not Windsors. Picture a
                        ladderback chair but without the back. Round mortise and tenons, but no
                        splay or solid seat.

                        And the four legged stool I referred to in a previous post and referred to
                        at www.greenwoodworking.com have rectilinear joints, and I have fewer
                        references to them other than that English Oak furniture book.

                        Perhaps the best I can offer is an illustration of Hywel Dda, Welsh King,
                        from the 1100's, in Leges Howelda Wallici. It is a crude drawing of a man
                        in a backed chair. It has 3 legs and resembles some Welsh chair forms. So
                        how is that? Great Granddaddy of the Windsor(maybe...) in the 12th Century.

                        http://www.llgc.org.uk/drych/Peniarth28/lhw0108.html
                        http://www.llgc.org.uk/drych/Peniarth28/lhw0106.html

                        Not too much help.




                        -----Original Message-----



                        Nope, been doing strictly viking age wood turning, spindles, bowls and
                        cups, without a tool rest using repro viking age turning tools. If you get
                        to Pennsic you might have seen us with the lathe setup. Down the hill from
                        the Runestone behind Cariadoc's camp, in a camp called Budgardr (Tent
                        village in old norse).

                        From what I recall, mid to late 1600's to early 1700's is as far back as I
                        could put windsor chairs. Perhaps someone has more info than I, as I have
                        really only looked at it from a perspective of wanting to get them for my
                        dining room at home and not in a re-enactor context.

                        Haraldr
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