Re: looking for documentation
- You have to be careful interpreting things overheard. I have often
been known to say very pointed things about the practice of slopping
an buch of plaster all over perfectly good walnut, and then daubing
paint all over it. (A practice in 16th century italy referred to
as "painting on gesso over a walnut base.") Scribblers and daubers
with names like Raphael, Cosmio, and Donatello were known to waste
walnut in this fashion. I mean, good God, was there a CANVAS
shortage or something?
And I've been known to say stuff like this out loud to my fellow
judges. Doesn't mean it cost the participant any points.
--- In email@example.com, Trevor Payne <chaos899@e...>
>Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were
> Just an OT reply here:
> The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the
judging and possibly should not have been judging that catagory.
>medieval. And yes I agree I find painting hand carving a sin too,
> You should infact be commended for your efforts to do things more
BUT, if your trying to make something more medieval then you
shouldn't be penalized for my modern bias toward natural wood grain.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: windsingersmoon <asa.wood@e...>
> Alas, during the competition (dispite my having clearly explained
> my documentation why I'd painted it, and explained aboutdiscussing
> polychroming) someone over-heard a couple of the judges
> it, and deciding to give it a lesser level award, with thestatement
> for the decision of; "What a Beautiful carving,......what a shame,them
> she painted it...."
> If I had not so clearly told why I'd painted it, I might have
> understood that statement and their decision. But I'd given
> that information.
> I have never painted a carving since then.
- Point made.
How-ever, in the particular case with the carving I mentioned that
The rules were (for this particular competition)
(1) That all entries had to be documented.
(2) The entrant Had to be, on site, in case the judges needed to ask
them questions. (in which case, a herald was to be sent out to look
for the person)
(3) Also, that after a certain point, (i.e. 10 am Sat.) that no
entrants were to be in the hall, until after the judging was over, at
around 3 pm.
There was a gentleman entering the competition, (his first
competition in the sca)
who was told his BEAUTIFUL leather carvings were in-eligibe.
Because (1) they were of a fantasy nature in their subject matter,
and as such, were not representative of anything produced 'in period'
Also, that because of the subject matter, he could not possibly
document them, (and he hadn't tried) and ALL entrees HAD to be
He conceeded that if those were 'the rules' that he would withdraw
his pieces from competition, and set them off, at a side area of the
packed-with-entrees hall, in an area set aside for 'displays only'
(he was fairly new, in the sca, but still wanted his work to be seen)
The man was/is a leather 'carver'
NOT a 'stamper'
His work is the best I've ever seen in the sca, in the area of
The only work I've ever seen any better, was by my Lady Mother, who
is a MASTER carver in her own right.
For over 20 years she wrote a regular column for 'Tandy Magazine'
(She has All the issues that were ever printed of that
magazine...years ago, a representative for Tandy offered her a great
deal of money for her collection, but she turned him down,....)
Anyway, this man who carved the 'fantasy' pieces, had to leave site
around 4 pm, to go back to B'Ham to go to work.
He went in search of some representative for/of the judges, someone
who would know who 'won' in what-ever catagories (or could find out).
He found someone.
He asked who had won in the 'wood-working' catagory ?
He was told he'd have to wait until court to find out.
He told the person "I can't wait-until-court,....I'm leaving site,
Right Now ! You see that truck out there ? It's mine and it's loaded
with all my stuff (he'd been merchanting right in front of the Hall)
and as soon as I leave this building, you can watch me leave to go
back to B'Ham, as I have to go to work,...I just wanna know who won
in the Woodworking, before I go.....
They reluctantly told him, and then walked with him to the door.
He was absolutely FURIOUS as he drove away from site.
The first place award had been awarded to a Modern Tourney Table that
Could not be 'documented' (and wasn't)(rule 1)
The man who made it was not even on site. (rule 2)
The rule (#3) about everyone but judges being out of the hall during
the judging, was ignored by the man's wife and her girlfriend, who
stayed in the competition hall, all day, demonstrating how quick and
easy (and compact, folding all parts away, inside the boards making
up the table)the tourney table and benches broke down and stored
away, and went up again.
The judges were so impressed with the cool demonstrations (sales job)
that they had decided to dis-regard all the rules (not observed)and
award the 1st prize to the tourney table.
Only first places were called called up in court, and given scrolls.
2nd and third places were posted in the hall, up on the wall, after
court, above eye level, and no announcement was made in court as to
where to view them, so doing so worked out as a chance thing.
That's where I later, happened to see I'd won 2nd place (actually, I
didn't see it that way, someone else chanced to, and told me where to
Now here's the clicher to this whole story.
I was told, by the leather carver, his end of what had happened, at
the next event he saw me at.
No big deal, right ?
But it Was a big-deal.
Because, for reasons I never quite understood, this man and I Could-
Not-Stand-Each-Other (!!!) (Actually he couldn't stand me, and made
no secret of it, so the feeling was mutual, since it's hard to like
someone who treats you with contempt,.......)
But, on this particular day, he sought me out, to tell me what had
happened (I saw him coming, and tried to duck and run, not careing to
have another nasty encounter with him)
But this day, he was totally respectful.
He was totally disgusted with what the judges had done.
He said he would NEVER compete in this kingdom !!
He said that he understood when the judges explained to him why his
pieces did not qualify, so he didn't mind with-drawing them.
He hadn't been aware the entrees Had to be 'period' and had to have
documentation, so he figured he'd make sure, the next time,
everything would be as it should. At that point, he still planned
to compete in the future.
But, it was out of curiosity, that he wanted to know who had won in
the WW. "I KNEW your stuff was 'period' and documented to hell
and back" (and he made comments on his personal opinion of my work,
artist to artist) "but when I found out they'd awarded the First
Place to that tourney table, that table that they Couldn't document,
and that was just a modern gimmick, with modern hardware that the
guy's wife and her friend kept demonstrating all day, against the
rules,....well, that was the final straw !!!
"If there's 'rules' then they need to apply to Everyone !!
After what happened, there is no-way-in-hell I'm ever gonna try and
compete in this Kingdom again !!!!"
Somewhere, at the beginning of this speech, He'd also told me "It's
no secret, that there's no love lost between you and me.....but as a
fellow craftsman, I respect the hell out-of-your-work !!!!
I just wanted you to know what had happened, and how I felt about it,
and to let you know that I think your work is......." (he said very
We parted, not friends, but with an understanding of sorts.
And I had finally gotten a chance to tell him my opinion of his work,
something he'd not allowed me to do previously with his scrowling
attitude and biting sarcasm every time I'd ever been near enough to
speak to him.
True to his word, he never again, tried to compete in this kingdom.
Eventually he left Kingdom. (at least, not to my knowledge, and I
tried to never miss a competition event, in those days)
I'm glad he gave me the opportunity to tell him how much I admired
his work, how close it was to my Mom's fantastic craft mastery.
There is, and darn-well-Should be, a code-of-honor, amongst
artists/craftsmen, that, even if you don't see eye-to-eye on a
personal level, that you at least, acknowledge another's work with an
un-biased eye, and offer respect to the work, even if you cannot
extend it to the person.
There is no doubt, that, that particular competition, my work took
second place, purely on decisions made by the judges, that had
nothing to do with the rules, which were clearly broken, both by the
particular entrant's representatives, and the judges them-selves that
That day was a heck of a lotta years ago.
I didn't let it sway me/discourage me from competeing. I continued
to compete hot and heavy for at least another dozen years and more.
I went on, in later years, to win several 'Champion-of-the-Arts'
awards, one of those, was won at this same event, about 3 or 4 years
later. In time, I slowed down the heavy competing. (I've never
stopped, completely, dispite rumors gotten back to me, to that
effect, but after 23.07 years of competing, how much more should I
have to keep proving ? These days, I compete if I feel like it.
'Wall-paper' I have enough to choke a horse with, but every-so-often,
I'm tempted (or pushed) to show off one of my latest works,....
Anyway, no sour grapes about that incident, years ago.
These things happen, from time-to-time.
It's a shame though, that the man with the wonderful leather
carvings, should have been so throughly soured his first time out,
bad enough to swear 'never again' (at least, not here, again)
(ps, M. William, I finally got me some of that non-period 'Gorilla
Glue'.....like Wow !!! Anything that can glue the wing back on a
concrete gargoyle cat !!!! I have Great, non-competition plans for
using that stuff !!! I'm presently constructing my own 'Village' to
live in (some folks want/get 'Castles'...somehow, I'm winding up with
a small village,.....at present, 6+ actual buildings, and several
make-dos,.....within another month or two, we'll have a 16 x 40' (two-
story) 'Guildhall' that we'll be moving into, while we tear down the
main house (the '+' mentioned above) and re-build as a Great Hall
library. We'll also be erecting a craft shed for messy projects,
and putting a proper porch on my lord's blacksmith shop so he can
finally set his forge up properly) Wish us luck. Next month I'm to
be the featured 'artist-of-the-month' at a local libary, where I'll
show off a number of architectural carvings that will be affixed to
various village building here, as door frames and above doors etc.
(These will make it on the buildings in Feb. The Gorilla glue may
well be what affixes them permanently to the buildings)
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@p...>
> You have to be careful interpreting things overheard. I have often
> been known to say very pointed things about the practice of
> an buch of plaster all over perfectly good walnut, and then daubing<chaos899@e...>
> paint all over it. (A practice in 16th century italy referred to
> as "painting on gesso over a walnut base.") Scribblers and daubers
> with names like Raphael, Cosmio, and Donatello were known to waste
> walnut in this fashion. I mean, good God, was there a CANVAS
> shortage or something?
> And I've been known to say stuff like this out loud to my fellow
> judges. Doesn't mean it cost the participant any points.
> Master William
> --- In email@example.com, Trevor Payne
> > Just an OT reply here:
> > The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the
> Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were
> judging and possibly should not have been judging that catagory.
> > You should infact be commended for your efforts to do things more
> medieval. And yes I agree I find painting hand carving a sin too,
> BUT, if your trying to make something more medieval then you
> shouldn't be penalized for my modern bias toward natural wood grain.
> > Aiden
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: windsingersmoon <asa.wood@e...>
> > Alas, during the competition (dispite my having clearly explained
> > my documentation why I'd painted it, and explained about
> > polychroming) someone over-heard a couple of the judges
> > it, and deciding to give it a lesser level award, with the
> > for the decision of; "What a Beautiful carving,......what a
> > she painted it...."
> > If I had not so clearly told why I'd painted it, I might have
> > understood that statement and their decision. But I'd given
> > that information.
> > I have never painted a carving since then.