Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: looking for documentation

Expand Messages
  • Trevor Payne
    Just an OT reply here: The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were judging
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 29, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Just an OT reply here:

      The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were judging and possibly should not have been judging that catagory.

      You should infact be commended for your efforts to do things more medieval. And yes I agree I find painting hand carving a sin too, BUT, if your trying to make something more medieval then you shouldn't be penalized for my modern bias toward natural wood grain.


      Aiden

      -----Original Message-----
      From: windsingersmoon <asa.wood@...>

      Alas, during the competition (dispite my having clearly explained in
      my documentation why I'd painted it, and explained about
      polychroming) someone over-heard a couple of the judges discussing
      it, and deciding to give it a lesser level award, with the statement
      for the decision of; "What a Beautiful carving,......what a shame,
      she painted it...."

      If I had not so clearly told why I'd painted it, I might have
      understood that statement and their decision. But I'd given them
      that information.
      I have never painted a carving since then.
    • Bill McNutt
      You have to be careful interpreting things overheard. I have often been known to say very pointed things about the practice of slopping an buch of plaster all
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        You have to be careful interpreting things overheard. I have often
        been known to say very pointed things about the practice of slopping
        an buch of plaster all over perfectly good walnut, and then daubing
        paint all over it. (A practice in 16th century italy referred to
        as "painting on gesso over a walnut base.") Scribblers and daubers
        with names like Raphael, Cosmio, and Donatello were known to waste
        walnut in this fashion. I mean, good God, was there a CANVAS
        shortage or something?

        And I've been known to say stuff like this out loud to my fellow
        judges. Doesn't mean it cost the participant any points.

        Master William

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Payne <chaos899@e...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Just an OT reply here:
        >
        > The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the
        Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were
        judging and possibly should not have been judging that catagory.
        >
        > You should infact be commended for your efforts to do things more
        medieval. And yes I agree I find painting hand carving a sin too,
        BUT, if your trying to make something more medieval then you
        shouldn't be penalized for my modern bias toward natural wood grain.
        >
        >
        > Aiden
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: windsingersmoon <asa.wood@e...>
        >
        > Alas, during the competition (dispite my having clearly explained
        in
        > my documentation why I'd painted it, and explained about
        > polychroming) someone over-heard a couple of the judges
        discussing
        > it, and deciding to give it a lesser level award, with the
        statement
        > for the decision of; "What a Beautiful carving,......what a shame,
        > she painted it...."
        >
        > If I had not so clearly told why I'd painted it, I might have
        > understood that statement and their decision. But I'd given
        them
        > that information.
        > I have never painted a carving since then.
        >
      • windsingersmoon
        Point made. How-ever, in the particular case with the carving I mentioned that I d painted,..... The rules were (for this particular competition) (1) That all
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Point made.

          How-ever, in the particular case with the carving I mentioned that
          I'd painted,.....

          The rules were (for this particular competition)

          (1) That all entries had to be documented.
          (2) The entrant Had to be, on site, in case the judges needed to ask
          them questions. (in which case, a herald was to be sent out to look
          for the person)
          (3) Also, that after a certain point, (i.e. 10 am Sat.) that no
          entrants were to be in the hall, until after the judging was over, at
          around 3 pm.

          There was a gentleman entering the competition, (his first
          competition in the sca)
          who was told his BEAUTIFUL leather carvings were in-eligibe.
          Because (1) they were of a fantasy nature in their subject matter,
          and as such, were not representative of anything produced 'in period'

          Also, that because of the subject matter, he could not possibly
          document them, (and he hadn't tried) and ALL entrees HAD to be
          documented.

          He conceeded that if those were 'the rules' that he would withdraw
          his pieces from competition, and set them off, at a side area of the
          packed-with-entrees hall, in an area set aside for 'displays only'

          (he was fairly new, in the sca, but still wanted his work to be seen)

          The man was/is a leather 'carver'
          NOT a 'stamper'
          His work is the best I've ever seen in the sca, in the area of
          leather carving.

          The only work I've ever seen any better, was by my Lady Mother, who
          is a MASTER carver in her own right.
          For over 20 years she wrote a regular column for 'Tandy Magazine'
          (She has All the issues that were ever printed of that
          magazine...years ago, a representative for Tandy offered her a great
          deal of money for her collection, but she turned him down,....)

          Anyway, this man who carved the 'fantasy' pieces, had to leave site
          around 4 pm, to go back to B'Ham to go to work.
          He went in search of some representative for/of the judges, someone
          who would know who 'won' in what-ever catagories (or could find out).
          He found someone.
          He asked who had won in the 'wood-working' catagory ?
          He was told he'd have to wait until court to find out.

          He told the person "I can't wait-until-court,....I'm leaving site,
          Right Now ! You see that truck out there ? It's mine and it's loaded
          with all my stuff (he'd been merchanting right in front of the Hall)
          and as soon as I leave this building, you can watch me leave to go
          back to B'Ham, as I have to go to work,...I just wanna know who won
          in the Woodworking, before I go.....
          They reluctantly told him, and then walked with him to the door.

          He was absolutely FURIOUS as he drove away from site.

          The first place award had been awarded to a Modern Tourney Table that
          Could not be 'documented' (and wasn't)(rule 1)

          The man who made it was not even on site. (rule 2)
          The rule (#3) about everyone but judges being out of the hall during
          the judging, was ignored by the man's wife and her girlfriend, who
          stayed in the competition hall, all day, demonstrating how quick and
          easy (and compact, folding all parts away, inside the boards making
          up the table)the tourney table and benches broke down and stored
          away, and went up again.

          The judges were so impressed with the cool demonstrations (sales job)
          that they had decided to dis-regard all the rules (not observed)and
          award the 1st prize to the tourney table.

          Only first places were called called up in court, and given scrolls.
          2nd and third places were posted in the hall, up on the wall, after
          court, above eye level, and no announcement was made in court as to
          where to view them, so doing so worked out as a chance thing.

          That's where I later, happened to see I'd won 2nd place (actually, I
          didn't see it that way, someone else chanced to, and told me where to
          go look.

          Now here's the clicher to this whole story.

          I was told, by the leather carver, his end of what had happened, at
          the next event he saw me at.
          No big deal, right ?

          But it Was a big-deal.
          Because, for reasons I never quite understood, this man and I Could-
          Not-Stand-Each-Other (!!!) (Actually he couldn't stand me, and made
          no secret of it, so the feeling was mutual, since it's hard to like
          someone who treats you with contempt,.......)

          But, on this particular day, he sought me out, to tell me what had
          happened (I saw him coming, and tried to duck and run, not careing to
          have another nasty encounter with him)
          But this day, he was totally respectful.

          He was totally disgusted with what the judges had done.
          He said he would NEVER compete in this kingdom !!
          He said that he understood when the judges explained to him why his
          pieces did not qualify, so he didn't mind with-drawing them.
          He hadn't been aware the entrees Had to be 'period' and had to have
          documentation, so he figured he'd make sure, the next time,
          everything would be as it should. At that point, he still planned
          to compete in the future.

          But, it was out of curiosity, that he wanted to know who had won in
          the WW. "I KNEW your stuff was 'period' and documented to hell
          and back" (and he made comments on his personal opinion of my work,
          artist to artist) "but when I found out they'd awarded the First
          Place to that tourney table, that table that they Couldn't document,
          and that was just a modern gimmick, with modern hardware that the
          guy's wife and her friend kept demonstrating all day, against the
          rules,....well, that was the final straw !!!

          "If there's 'rules' then they need to apply to Everyone !!
          After what happened, there is no-way-in-hell I'm ever gonna try and
          compete in this Kingdom again !!!!"

          Somewhere, at the beginning of this speech, He'd also told me "It's
          no secret, that there's no love lost between you and me.....but as a
          fellow craftsman, I respect the hell out-of-your-work !!!!
          I just wanted you to know what had happened, and how I felt about it,
          and to let you know that I think your work is......." (he said very
          nice stuff)

          We parted, not friends, but with an understanding of sorts.
          And I had finally gotten a chance to tell him my opinion of his work,
          something he'd not allowed me to do previously with his scrowling
          attitude and biting sarcasm every time I'd ever been near enough to
          speak to him.

          True to his word, he never again, tried to compete in this kingdom.
          Eventually he left Kingdom. (at least, not to my knowledge, and I
          tried to never miss a competition event, in those days)
          I'm glad he gave me the opportunity to tell him how much I admired
          his work, how close it was to my Mom's fantastic craft mastery.

          There is, and darn-well-Should be, a code-of-honor, amongst
          artists/craftsmen, that, even if you don't see eye-to-eye on a
          personal level, that you at least, acknowledge another's work with an
          un-biased eye, and offer respect to the work, even if you cannot
          extend it to the person.

          There is no doubt, that, that particular competition, my work took
          second place, purely on decisions made by the judges, that had
          nothing to do with the rules, which were clearly broken, both by the
          particular entrant's representatives, and the judges them-selves that
          day.

          That day was a heck of a lotta years ago.
          I didn't let it sway me/discourage me from competeing. I continued
          to compete hot and heavy for at least another dozen years and more.
          I went on, in later years, to win several 'Champion-of-the-Arts'
          awards, one of those, was won at this same event, about 3 or 4 years
          later. In time, I slowed down the heavy competing. (I've never
          stopped, completely, dispite rumors gotten back to me, to that
          effect, but after 23.07 years of competing, how much more should I
          have to keep proving ? These days, I compete if I feel like it.
          'Wall-paper' I have enough to choke a horse with, but every-so-often,
          I'm tempted (or pushed) to show off one of my latest works,....

          Anyway, no sour grapes about that incident, years ago.
          These things happen, from time-to-time.
          It's a shame though, that the man with the wonderful leather
          carvings, should have been so throughly soured his first time out,
          bad enough to swear 'never again' (at least, not here, again)

          Shara
          (ps, M. William, I finally got me some of that non-period 'Gorilla
          Glue'.....like Wow !!! Anything that can glue the wing back on a
          concrete gargoyle cat !!!! I have Great, non-competition plans for
          using that stuff !!! I'm presently constructing my own 'Village' to
          live in (some folks want/get 'Castles'...somehow, I'm winding up with
          a small village,.....at present, 6+ actual buildings, and several
          make-dos,.....within another month or two, we'll have a 16 x 40' (two-
          story) 'Guildhall' that we'll be moving into, while we tear down the
          main house (the '+' mentioned above) and re-build as a Great Hall
          library. We'll also be erecting a craft shed for messy projects,
          and putting a proper porch on my lord's blacksmith shop so he can
          finally set his forge up properly) Wish us luck. Next month I'm to
          be the featured 'artist-of-the-month' at a local libary, where I'll
          show off a number of architectural carvings that will be affixed to
          various village building here, as door frames and above doors etc.
          (These will make it on the buildings in Feb. The Gorilla glue may
          well be what affixes them permanently to the buildings)
          <<<G>>
          S.


          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@p...>
          wrote:
          >
          > You have to be careful interpreting things overheard. I have often
          > been known to say very pointed things about the practice of
          slopping
          > an buch of plaster all over perfectly good walnut, and then daubing
          > paint all over it. (A practice in 16th century italy referred to
          > as "painting on gesso over a walnut base.") Scribblers and daubers
          > with names like Raphael, Cosmio, and Donatello were known to waste
          > walnut in this fashion. I mean, good God, was there a CANVAS
          > shortage or something?
          >
          > And I've been known to say stuff like this out loud to my fellow
          > judges. Doesn't mean it cost the participant any points.
          >
          > Master William
          >
          > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Payne
          <chaos899@e...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Just an OT reply here:
          > >
          > > The Fault in this situation rests solely on the shoulders of the
          > Judges. They were not knowledgable in the media that they were
          > judging and possibly should not have been judging that catagory.
          > >
          > > You should infact be commended for your efforts to do things more
          > medieval. And yes I agree I find painting hand carving a sin too,
          > BUT, if your trying to make something more medieval then you
          > shouldn't be penalized for my modern bias toward natural wood grain.
          > >
          > >
          > > Aiden
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: windsingersmoon <asa.wood@e...>
          > >
          > > Alas, during the competition (dispite my having clearly explained
          > in
          > > my documentation why I'd painted it, and explained about
          > > polychroming) someone over-heard a couple of the judges
          > discussing
          > > it, and deciding to give it a lesser level award, with the
          > statement
          > > for the decision of; "What a Beautiful carving,......what a
          shame,
          > > she painted it...."
          > >
          > > If I had not so clearly told why I'd painted it, I might have
          > > understood that statement and their decision. But I'd given
          > them
          > > that information.
          > > I have never painted a carving since then.
          > >
          >
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.