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Tools / Affordability

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  • ericarchambault@juno.com
    My wood shop is well stocked to handle doing almost any medieval recreation piece that my skills are up to. I ve got a little less than $200 into the whole
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 23, 2005
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      My wood shop is well stocked to handle doing
      almost any medieval recreation piece that my
      skills are up to.

      I've got a little less than $200 into the whole shop.
      I guess I've been lucky, but the antique Craftsman stuff
      seems to work well, and yard sales are a wonderful thing.

      Some of the better items; a 10" band saw with 14 blades for $50
      a 40+ yr old radial arm craftsman, and a table saw for $20 each,
      a Dewalt compound miter, and 2 routers all below 20.

      Tools can be had cheap. Save money for more lumber, and don't scrimp on the blades.

      About Harbor Freight, yeah the tools can be hit or miss,
      but their return policy is great! Walk in hand them a broken tool
      and they hand you a new one. No questions asked, last time I didn't even have the receipt with me.



      Ercole.
      Caid

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    • Ralph Lindberg
      ... Actually old Craftsman can be a good deal, say from before they went to plastic cases. My 28 year-old Craftsman Industrial drill is still going strong
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 23, 2005
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        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "ericarchambault@j..."
        <ericarchambault@j...> wrote:
        >
        > ..., but the antique Craftsman stuff
        > seems to work well, and yard sales are a wonderful thing.
        >

        Actually "old" Craftsman can be a good deal, say from before they
        went to plastic cases. My 28 year-old Craftsman Industrial drill is
        still going strong and probably will for my entire life-plus

        Most of the tools I see in yard-sales are there because no one in
        the family wants them. But sometimes you run across a "deal"

        A couple in the Barony inherited the "old mans" shop. He had a
        Woodmaster Drum sander, an AMT 14" BS, an AMT 10" TS, a HarborFreight
        table-top TS, two drill-presses, an AMT jointer, about 10 (no I'm not
        kidding) sanders, several drills, etc. They all went to people in the
        Barony for helping them clean out the shop. Several people really got
        good deals, including me, as I got the Drum Sander (I was also the
        only one with 220 in the shop)

        Ralg
        AnTir
      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
        ... I ve got a craftsman table saw that belonged to my grandfather. Still runs great. I ve got a craftsman circular saw that belonged to my wifes grandfather
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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          > Actually "old" Craftsman can be a good deal, say
          > from before they
          > went to plastic cases. My 28 year-old Craftsman
          > Industrial drill is
          > still going strong and probably will for my entire
          > life-plus


          I've got a craftsman table saw that belonged to my
          grandfather. Still runs great. I've got a craftsman
          circular saw that belonged to my wifes grandfather
          still works great and gets used regularly.

          Tool 'collectors' have made it a bit harder and more
          expensive to gather old tools, but when found they are
          generally well worth the price. There were old tools
          that were of questionable quality, but chances are by
          the time they have become 'old' you can reasonably bet
          on them showing their quality by lasting or by
          breaking.


          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          Aude Aliquid Dignum
          ' Dare Something Worthy '

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        • Kareina Talvi Tytär
          I don t know why, but I find the juxtaposition between saying that one s shop is ready for almost any medieval recreation piece and a description of modern
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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            I don't know why, but I find the juxtaposition between saying that one's
            shop is ready for almost any medieval recreation piece and a description of
            modern power tools with which to make said pieces rather ironic/amusing. I
            have heard costumers say that they use sewing machines to replace the
            servants that their station in life would have entitled them. I personally
            prefer to do my stitching by hand, since it is not only fun to do that way,
            but the quality/beauty of the seams is superior. Therefore I consider the
            sewing machine is sort of equivalent to a team of apprentices who hasn't
            yet perfected their skills, even though working together they are quite
            fast. I'm guessing from the recent discussion on this list that many
            woodworkers also feel that power tools are an acceptable substitute for the
            help you might have had with your projects back then.

            Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
            of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
            count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
            about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
            yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
            equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project. If you find
            that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
            be interesting as well.

            --Kareina

            > Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:23:21 GMT
            > Ercole, in Caid wrote:
            >
            >My wood shop is well stocked to handle doing
            >almost any medieval recreation piece that my
            >skills are up to.
            [snip of discussion of affordability of power tools]


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          • Mary Taran
            I, on the other hand, do not view my sewing machine as a poor substitute for hand sewing, because my hand sewing is not as skilled as my machine sewing. Plus
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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              I, on the other hand, do not view my sewing machine as a poor substitute for hand sewing, because my hand sewing is not as skilled as my machine sewing.  Plus I have various auto-immune disorders that make hand sewing for extended periods untenable.  I have no problems with using power-assisted woodworking helpers, either.  However, I do not have the budget in either money or space for a professional level woodshop.  I live in an apartment, and I'd have to find another place to live if I had screaming tablesaws buzzing away at night!  I'd love it if you experienced woodworkers would give us woodworking newbies some guidance on the sorts of tools that would make it possible to work on these items in a less grandiose setting.  If this means hand tools, or smaller power tools, please steer me to the right ones. 

              My husband is more experienced in working with power woodworking tools than I am, and he does believe in buying the best available, but he hasn't touched them in quite a while.  Can you guide me to tutorials on the net which will allow me to make beautiful pieces that can improve my encampment or my home (I prefer dual-duty items!), without the full garage style woodshop?

              Mary Taran

              At 04:51 PM 7/24/2005, you wrote:

              I don't know why, but I find the juxtaposition between saying that one's
              shop is ready for almost any medieval recreation piece and a description of
              modern power tools with which to make said pieces rather ironic/amusing.  I
              have heard costumers say that they use sewing machines to replace the
              servants that their station in life would have entitled them.  I personally
              prefer to do my stitching by hand, since it is not only fun to do that way,
              but the quality/beauty of the seams is superior.  Therefore I consider the
              sewing machine is sort of equivalent to a team of apprentices who hasn't
              yet perfected their skills, even though working together they are quite
              fast.   I'm guessing from the recent discussion on this list that many
              woodworkers also feel that power tools are an acceptable substitute for the
              help you might have had with your projects back then.

              Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
              of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
              count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
              about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
              yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
              equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project.  If you find
              that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
              be interesting as well.

              --Kareina



            • Arthur Slaughter
              As I do many of my pieces for profit it comes down to time. If I can t make 20 dollars per hour on a particular piece it probably won t get built except for an
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                As I do many of my pieces for profit it comes down to time. If I can't make
                20 dollars per hour on a particular piece it probably won't get built except
                for an A&S display
                THL Finn

                >From: Kareina Talvi Tyt�r <kareina@...>
                >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                >To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Tools / Affordability
                >Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:51:06 +1000
                >
                >
                >Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
                >of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
                >count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
                >about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
                >yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
                >equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project. If you find
                >that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
                >be interesting as well.
                >
                >--Kareina
                >
                > > Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:23:21 GMT
                > > Ercole, in Caid wrote:
                > >
                > >My wood shop is well stocked to handle doing
                > >almost any medieval recreation piece that my
                > >skills are up to.
                >[snip of discussion of affordability of power tools]
                >
                >
                >--
                >No virus found in this outgoing message.
                >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 7/22/05
                >
                >

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              • ddordway@aol.com
                Mary s and Kareina s posts both share a passion for their work and I support their realizations. In that light, allow me the opportunity to introduce myself.
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                  Mary's and Kareina's posts both share a passion for their work and I support
                  their realizations. In that light, allow me the opportunity to introduce
                  myself. Not being a member of the SCA, I have joined this group for the purpose
                  of gaining wisdom from fellow woodworkers. I am a medieval reenactor involved
                  in an upstart group based upon education thru reenactment. The majority of
                  the projects I have constructed serve dual purposes. My current inventory
                  includes breakdown thrones, a banner stand, several six-board/viking boxes that
                  double as benches, a weapons rack, archery box, breakdown tables and benches, and
                  a breakdown hutch to conceal coolers. I live in a condo and design my
                  projects to be able to be packed in my pickup truck. I don't have a workshop. The
                  most valuable tool I own is a Black and Decker Workmate. My tools reside in a
                  half car garage that have to be taken out to be used when needed. I set up
                  on my back patio when the weather cooperates and have at it. Because of my
                  space constraints, I use hand held power tools to rough out my projects. This
                  step also saves alot of time. Ultimately, there is not a project I have built
                  that hasn't been finished by hand tools, be it a plane, chisel, file, or
                  scraper. My involvement in this past weekends demo consisted of demonstrating the
                  art of laying out and cutting dovetail joints. By the end of the event, I had
                  only constructed one corner of a box. The conversations that I had during
                  this process are priceless as several people took the time to ask what I was
                  doing and why I was doing it. I intend to post pictures of my accomplishments on
                  this site in the near future as the majority were born from referencing this
                  group.

                  Lagerstein
                • Ralph Lindberg
                  ... demonstrating the ... event, I had ... Lagerstein, one thing I keep looking for, is solid documentation as to the age of the dovetail corner. What has your
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, ddordway@a... wrote:
                    >
                    >.. My involvement in this past weekends demo consisted of
                    demonstrating the
                    > art of laying out and cutting dovetail joints. By the end of the
                    event, I had
                    > only constructed one corner of a box.

                    Lagerstein, one thing I keep looking for, is solid documentation as
                    to the age of the dovetail corner. What has your investigation shown?

                    Ralg
                    AnTir
                  • ddordway@aol.com
                    In a message dated 7/24/05 10:39:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n7bsn@amsat.org writes:
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                      In a message dated 7/24/05 10:39:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n7bsn@...
                      writes:

                      << Lagerstein, one thing I keep looking for, is solid documentation as
                      to the age of the dovetail corner. What has your investigation shown? >>


                      Actually, my investigation attempts have proved lacking at best. I have
                      found several references to medieval joinery thru this group. Unfortunately, I
                      cannot point you toward the pertinent references at this time. Maybe some of
                      our documentation minded artisans can help to provide us both with the useful
                      information. I do remember seeing a photo of a Scandinavian type box with a
                      single dovetail at the corner. It was dated well within the time period of
                      representation.

                      Lagerstein
                    • Tim Bray
                      ... For me, it s a combination of A and B, plus D) the wood I have available to work with is much more tractable with power tools than hand tools. There s a
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                        Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
                        of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
                        count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
                        about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
                        yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
                        equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project.  If you find
                        that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
                        be interesting as well.

                        For me, it's a combination of A and B, plus D) the wood I have available to work with is much more tractable with power tools than hand tools.  There's a big difference between the hard, brittle kiln-dried oak I can get here in CA, versus the green or air-dried timber available to the medieval craftsman (and the enterprising recreationist east of the Plains).

                        If you start with milled and kiln-dried timber, it's much easier to proceed with power tools to mill and shape the wood.  If you started with a log, it would be easier to work with hand tools. 

                        The hand vs. power debate goes on even among professional woodworkers.  There are pros who claim that for one-off pieces, it is just as fast to do everything by hand as by machine, once you reach a certain skill level.   Most of us don't spend enough hours a week at the bench to develop that level of skill; and when you give it a try, you quickly realize how much WORK hand-tool woodworking is.  It is physically demanding, hard labor, and it requires a lot of practice.  

                        I used to joint boards for edge-joining by hand with a plane.  It was fun when I was doing it once in a while... then I needed to do about 10 joints at once.  I got partway through that project before my elbow got so sore that I broke down and bought a jointer. 

                        I think it comes down to a question of what you want to do: make medieval-styled furniture, or do medieval-style woodworking.  The former can be done in any combination of techniques; the latter means hand tools and rough timber. 

                        Cheers,
                        Colin


                        Albion Works
                        Furniture and Accessories
                        For the Medievalist!
                      • Tim Bray
                        Mary, If you have physical problems that make hand sewing difficult, I can t imagine how you will be able to do much woodworking with either hand or power
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                          Mary,

                          If you have physical problems that make hand sewing difficult, I can't imagine how you will be able to do much woodworking with either hand or power tools.  The hand tools require quite a bit of effort to use, and put a strain on various joints (wrist, elbows, shoulders, back).  Hand-held power tools tend to vibrate a lot, which can exacerbate any nerve or joint problems.

                          Having said that, here's a basic set of tools to start with:
                          Workbench
                          Japanese-style combination rip/crosscut saw
                          Jack plane
                          Low-angle block plane
                          Set of chisels (1/4", 1/2", 3/4" at minimum; preferably mortising chisels rather than bench chisels)
                          Mallet
                          Brace and set of bits

                          With that, you could make benches, chests, even beds.

                          For a woodshop and instruction - see if there is a Woodcraft store anywhere near you.  They usually have classes and workshops, and you can rent shop space.  It can be a great way to find out if you really like woodworking before spending a lot of money on tools.

                          Cheers,
                          Colin


                          At 06:09 PM 7/24/2005 -0700, you wrote:
                          I, on the other hand, do not view my sewing machine as a poor substitute for hand sewing, because my hand sewing is not as skilled as my machine sewing.  Plus I have various auto-immune disorders that make hand sewing for extended periods untenable.  I have no problems with using power-assisted woodworking helpers, either.  However, I do not have the budget in either money or space for a professional level woodshop.  I live in an apartment, and I'd have to find another place to live if I had screaming tablesaws buzzing away at night!  I'd love it if you experienced woodworkers would give us woodworking newbies some guidance on the sorts of tools that would make it possible to work on these items in a less grandiose setting.  If this means hand tools, or smaller power tools, please steer me to the right ones. 

                          Albion Works
                          Furniture and Accessories
                          For the Medievalist!
                        • Tim Bray
                          The earliest corner dovetailed joint (carcase joinery) I personally have seen is on a big altarpiece from 1435, in the Musee d Art et d Histoire in Brussels.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                            The earliest corner dovetailed joint (carcase joinery) I personally have seen is on a big altarpiece from 1435, in the Musee d'Art et d'Histoire in Brussels.  I uploaded a photo of it to the album labeled "Dovetails" in the Photos section for this group.  The photo isn't very good - for some reason, they didn't illuminate the back of the altarpiece very well - but the dovetails are clearly visible.

                            There are also some supposedly 13th century chests with an odd sort of lap-dovetail joint, but I have only seen line drawings.  There are sliding dovetails on small Viking artifacts, but no dovetail corner joints that I'm aware of.  

                            Cheers,
                            Colin


                            Albion Works
                            Furniture and Accessories
                            For the Medievalist!
                          • Chuck Phillips
                            Kareina asks: Since I m very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 24, 2005
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                              Kareina asks:
                               Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
                              of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
                              count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
                              about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
                              yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
                              equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project.  If you find
                              that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
                              be interesting as well.

                              --Kareina

                              [Chuck Phillips]  The short answer is that power tools simply allow you to get into more trouble, faster.  Sloppy setup and poor technique will bring bad results no matter what tools you use.  It is more difficult to do serious bodily damage with hand tools, but not impossible.  (I've got the scars to prove it...)
                               
                              The thing you need to determine is this:  Are you more interested in the product, or the process? 
                               
                              Charles Joiner
                              Caid
                            • Lord Robin Gallowglass
                              ... I wouldn t call my self a very experienced woodworker, as I m just finally getting back into it after a loooong break :) But something that I found very
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                > screaming tablesaws buzzing away at night! I'd love it if you experienced
                                > woodworkers would give us woodworking newbies some guidance on the sorts of
                                > tools that would make it possible to work on these items in a less
                                > grandiose setting. If this means hand tools, or smaller power tools,
                                > please steer me to the right ones.

                                I wouldn't call my self a very experienced woodworker, as I'm just finally
                                getting back into it after a loooong break :)

                                But something that I found very helpful when I was cutting the tenons on my
                                slat bed was a handheld jig/sabre saw and a "speed square". I'm not doing
                                modern type tenons where the tenon is cut down to be thinner than the stock
                                as well as narrower in width, but just cutting in and making them narrower
                                than the stock.

                                I wasn't very happy how my bandsaw was cutting the tenons, so I grabed the
                                speed square, clamped it to the board so when the edge of the jig saw base
                                was against it, the blade was on the line I wanted to cut. Made it very easy
                                to cut nice straight lines for tenons.

                                The same technique could work for longer cuts, either using a larger square
                                (such as a drywall square) or just a good long and reasonably straight piece
                                of wood clamped to the board you want to cut.

                                > Mary Taran

                                Robin
                              • Bill McNutt
                                I ll respond to that, too. Master Will http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood ... From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                  I'll respond to that, too.

                                  Master Will
                                  http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kareina Talvi Tytär

                                  Since I'm very new to working with wood myself I am wondering if the rest
                                  of you find that the power tools A) do a better job than by hand, so they
                                  count as a team of competent craftsmen under your supervision, B) give
                                  about the same quality product as doing it by hand (only faster) or C)
                                  yield results that are not as good as by hand and so would be the
                                  equivalent of unskilled apprentices to help with the project. If you find
                                  that your answer varies by the task required and the tool used that would
                                  be interesting as well.

                                  --Kareina

                                  > Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:23:21 GMT
                                  > Ercole, in Caid wrote:
                                  >
                                  >My wood shop is well stocked to handle doing
                                  >almost any medieval recreation piece that my
                                  >skills are up to.
                                  [snip of discussion of affordability of power tools]


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                                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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                                • Bill McNutt
                                  Oooh, good point, that I forgot. What he said! I made the frame for my 3 panel chest from a log I got from a friend. It was far easier to work with hand
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                    Oooh, good point, that I forgot.  What he said!

                                     

                                    I made the frame for my 3 panel chest from a log I got from a friend.  It was far easier to work with hand tools than the kiln dried stuff I usually use.  

                                     


                                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bray


                                    If you start with milled and kiln-dried timber, it's much easier to proceed with power tools to mill and shape the wood.  If you started with a log, it would be easier to work with hand tools. 


                                  • Tim Bray
                                    ... That s exactly what I was trying to say, less elegantly. And that is in fact the very question; all else follows once you answer that. The only caveat is,
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                      Charles Joiner nails it:

                                      The thing you need to determine is this:  Are you more interested in the product, or the process? 

                                      That's exactly what I was trying to say, less elegantly.  And that is in fact the very question; all else follows once you answer that.

                                      The only caveat is, at a certain level of detail the product and process are linked.  From ten feet away, a Gothic bench made with machine tools might be nearly indistinguishable from one made entirely with hand tools; but up close, the surface left by the planes will be noticeably different, and certain other details (like the cross-sectional shape of certain pieces) might be different as well.  This is even more true for more complex things like chests or frame-and-panel work.

                                      Someone recently pointed me to an article that touches on this:

                                      http://home.pacbell.net/ebeniste/Aform.htm

                                      Food for thought!

                                      Cheers,
                                      Colin

                                      Albion Works
                                      Furniture and Accessories
                                      For the Medievalist!
                                    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                      Most of us don t spend enough hours a ... go to your library and find a tape of any of Roy Underhill s Woodwright shows. It s pretty amazing to watch how fast
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                        Most of us don't spend enough hours a
                                        > week at the bench to
                                        > develop that level of skill; and when you give it a
                                        > try, you quickly
                                        > realize how much WORK hand-tool woodworking is. It
                                        > is physically
                                        > demanding, hard labor, and it requires a lot of
                                        > practice.


                                        go to your library and find a tape of any of
                                        Roy Underhill's Woodwright shows.

                                        It's pretty amazing to watch how fast he is with
                                        only hand tools.



                                        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                        Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                        ' Dare Something Worthy '



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                                      • Ralph Lindberg
                                        ... wrote: ... ... ya but... The first few years I watched him I was dumb-founded. How could someone that was trying to promote traditional
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                          <baronconal@y...> wrote:
                                          ...
                                          >
                                          > go to your library and find a tape of any of
                                          > Roy Underhill's Woodwright shows.
                                          >
                                          > It's pretty amazing to watch how fast he is with
                                          > only hand tools.
                                          >
                                          ... ya but...

                                          The first few years I watched him I was dumb-founded. How could
                                          someone that was trying to promote traditional wood working not take
                                          his time and make it look good also. I started to think he -couldn't-
                                          do hand work and make it look good.

                                          Then I watched an episode in Williamsburg, where he was cutting
                                          dove-tails as fast as he was talking, they fit and looked good.

                                          Still don't understand why he doesn't take the time to ensure all his
                                          work looks good.

                                          Ralg
                                          AnTir
                                        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                          ... He does.... But he also does his show with a bare minimum of editing. I ve seen items that he took his time on. They are precise. The stuff he does on his
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 25, 2005
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                                            > Still don't understand why he doesn't take the time
                                            > to ensure all his
                                            > work looks good.
                                            >
                                            > Ralg
                                            > AnTir


                                            He does.... But he also does his show with a bare
                                            minimum of editing. I've seen items that he took
                                            his time on. They are precise. The stuff he does
                                            on his show is done in just about 30 minutes.

                                            Oh and he is just as friendly as he appears to be.


                                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                          • Ralph Lindberg
                                            ... He s really not doing traditional woodworking any favors with his frantic pace and failure to produce the quality possible. If the casual
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
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                                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                              <baronconal@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > He does.... But he also does his show with a bare
                                              > minimum of editing. I've seen items that he took
                                              > his time on. They are precise. The stuff he does
                                              > on his show is done in just about 30 minutes.
                                              >

                                              He's really not doing traditional woodworking any favors with his
                                              frantic pace and failure to produce the quality possible. If the
                                              casual watcher/woodworker compares his average product, with Norm's,
                                              they could easily decide to follow the path to "Normism" (ie only use
                                              a hand-tool when you -have- to), as that is the perceived method to
                                              produce quality. Rather then a more balanced method (ie using the best
                                              tool you have for the job).

                                              If you have ever looked at the shooting schedule for the New Yankee
                                              (see their web-site when they are shooting new episodes), you will see
                                              how many days (up to 10 for something complicated) they take. It's
                                              easy to get quality if it takes 40 hours to make something, rather
                                              then 30 minutes.

                                              ...and don't even get me started on the "Router Workshop"

                                              Ralg
                                              AnTir
                                            • Tim Bray
                                              In defense of my hero! ... I have to disagree with that assertion, on several counts. First, in reference to the other ongoing discussion here, his show is
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
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                                                In defense of my hero!

                                                He's really not doing traditional woodworking any favors with his
                                                frantic pace and failure to produce the quality possible.

                                                I have to disagree with that assertion, on several counts.  First, in reference to the other ongoing discussion here, his show is concerned more with process than product.  Most of the time, the point of the show is to demystify hand-tool work and demonstrate that traditional processes can be simple and fast. 

                                                Nevertheless, he often starts out by showing a period piece of good quality, then proceeds to demonstrate the process.   Traditional woodworking techniques often do look sloppy - a drawbored M&T, for instance.  There is no particular advantage to be gained from a snug fit (as there is with a glued joint), so no time is wasted on ensuring such a fit.  It looks sloppy until the magic moment when the peg is driven home, and suddenly the joint is perfect!  I have often been astonished at the level of unconscious quality Roy displays, even when working at top speed.

                                                Secondly, define "quality."  Many of his projects are ordinary objects of everyday use (rakes, shovels, wheels, etc).  For such objects, quality is mainly determined by functionality and long-term reliability.  They may look rough to us, but they are nevertheless quality workmanship if they are useful and long-lived.   (Norm is much better at producing an _appearance_ of quality.  But are all those brad nails really quality workmanship?)

                                                It's
                                                easy to get quality if it takes 40 hours to make something, rather
                                                then 30 minutes.

                                                Turn that back onto the shows themselves.  It's easier to get the appearance of quality if you spend 10 days shooting and who knows how many hours editing, than if you do the whole thing in one take (as so many of Roy's shows were, in the early years).   But that is expensive and requires serious financial backing.  What major tool manufacturer is going to sponsor and equip Roy's show, when he tells you how to make most of your tools, or to recondition old ones from garage sales?  I'll bet the budgets for Norm's shows are at least ten times those of Roy's.

                                                If the
                                                casual watcher/woodworker compares his average product, with Norm's,
                                                they could easily decide to follow the path to "Normism"

                                                I can't argue with that one.  It's quite clear that the casual watcher/woodworker identifies more with Norm than with Roy.   I think there are lots of reasons why that happens, but the perceived difference in quality is way down the list.  Basically, it's hippies vs. yuppies.

                                                Cheers,
                                                Colin

                                                Albion Works
                                                Furniture and Accessories
                                                For the Medievalist!
                                              • Siegfried
                                                ... Well, personally while I love watching Norm ... I actually liked the a few year ago stuff better than the current incarnation. Back when he had less
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
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                                                  >> If the
                                                  >> casual watcher/woodworker compares his average product, with Norm's,
                                                  >> they could easily decide to follow the path to "Normism"
                                                  > I can't argue with that one. It's quite clear that the casual
                                                  > watcher/woodworker identifies more with Norm than with Roy. I think there
                                                  > are lots of reasons why that happens, but the perceived difference in
                                                  > quality is way down the list. Basically, it's hippies vs. yuppies.

                                                  Well, personally while I love watching Norm ... I actually liked the
                                                  'a few year ago stuff' better than the current incarnation. Back
                                                  when he had less tools. Before the lathe duplicator, and before the
                                                  huge drum sander, etc. Back when his tools were not unreasonable for
                                                  a well equipped home shop to have.

                                                  It was nice to see a whole project get done, and then look back and
                                                  realize that you have all those tools and could do it exactly the same
                                                  way.

                                                  Now that doesn't stop me from watching, and drooling over that drum
                                                  sander... but that's another story, and getting farther away from
                                                  Medival Woodworking.

                                                  Siegfried


                                                  --
                                                  _________________________________________________________________________
                                                  THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                                  Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                                  Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                                  http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                                                • Ralph
                                                  Hey Guys, Let s not forget the other Wood Works guy David Marks, He does great work (contemporary styled) with both hand and power tools and really admires
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
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                                                    Hey Guys,

                                                     

                                                    Let’s not forget the other “Wood Works” guy David Marks, He does great work (contemporary styled) with both hand and power tools and really admires wood.

                                                     

                                                    In my book it’s the big three – Roy, Norm and David!

                                                     

                                                    See Ya!

                                                     

                                                    Alfric, An Tir

                                                     


                                                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tim Bray
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:14 AM
                                                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] TV woodworking... was Re: Tools / Affordability

                                                     

                                                    In defense of my hero!


                                                    I can't argue with that one.  It's quite clear that the casual watcher/woodworker identifies more with Norm than with Roy .   I think there are lots of reasons why that happens, but the perceived difference in quality is way down the list.  Basically, it's hippies vs. yuppies.

                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Colin



                                                  • Ralph Lindberg
                                                    ... great work ... Unfortunately he is only on the premium channels in my area, and I already pay the cable company enough. Alfric, a side question... where
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 28, 2005
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                                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" <alfric@c...> wrote:
                                                      > Hey Guys,
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Let's not forget the other "Wood Works" guy David Marks, He does
                                                      great work
                                                      > (contemporary styled) with both hand and power tools and really admires
                                                      > wood.

                                                      Unfortunately he is only on the "premium" channels in my area, and I
                                                      already pay the cable company enough.

                                                      Alfric, a side question... where in AnTir are you???

                                                      Ralg (Dragons Laire)
                                                      AnTir
                                                    • Ralph
                                                      Greetings Ralg, I reside in The Barony of Three Mountains, A cousin Barony to the south of you. Are those your pictures on the dragons Lair web site? _____
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
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                                                        Greetings Ralg,

                                                         

                                                        I reside in The Barony of Three Mountains, A cousin Barony to the south of you.

                                                         

                                                        Are those your pictures on the dragons Lair web site?

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         


                                                        Alfric, a side question... where in AnTir are you???

                                                        Ralg (Dragons Laire)
                                                        AnTir




                                                      • Ralph Lindberg
                                                        ... south of ... Oh I know the group well, don t travel like I used to. Your Baron and Baroness are good folk. ... Yup, kinda all over it. Ralg AnTir
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
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                                                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" <alfric@c...> wrote:
                                                          > Greetings Ralg,
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I reside in The Barony of Three Mountains, A cousin Barony to the
                                                          south of
                                                          > you.
                                                          >
                                                          Oh I know the group well, don't travel like I used to. Your Baron
                                                          and Baroness are good folk.

                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Are those your pictures on the dragons Lair web site?
                                                          >
                                                          Yup, kinda all over it.

                                                          Ralg
                                                          AnTir
                                                        • Ralph
                                                          Well let me re-introduce myself, I am HL Alfric Rolfson, JdL, Sergeant To Baroness Three Mountains and Apprentice to HG Hlutwige Wolfkiller. I have been kinda
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
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                                                            Well let me re-introduce myself,

                                                             

                                                            I am HL Alfric Rolfson, JdL,

                                                            Sergeant To Baroness Three Mountains and Apprentice to HG Hlutwige Wolfkiller.

                                                             

                                                            I have been kinda hanging out in the background on the list for awhile popping in once in a while.

                                                             

                                                            Glad to meet you Ralg! Btw the Baronial web site is cool!

                                                             

                                                            Here’s the web site my wife is putting together for me. Enjoy!

                                                            http://home.comcast.net/~blkhrse/index.html

                                                             

                                                            Y.I.S.

                                                             

                                                            Alfric

                                                             

                                                             

                                                             


                                                            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ralph Lindberg
                                                            Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:39 AM
                                                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] TV woodworking... was Re: Tools / Affordability

                                                             

                                                              Yup, kinda all over it.

                                                            Ralg
                                                            AnTir



                                                          • Ralph Lindberg
                                                            ... Good people, known Her Grace for a couple of decades now ... I wondered if you d done the Glastonbury Chairs for the Barony, had a chance to look at them
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" <alfric@c...> wrote:
                                                              > Well let me re-introduce myself,
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > I am HL Alfric Rolfson, JdL,
                                                              >
                                                              > Sergeant To Baroness Three Mountains and Apprentice to HG Hlutwige
                                                              > Wolfkiller.

                                                              Good people, known Her Grace for a couple of decades now

                                                              ...
                                                              >
                                                              > http://home.comcast.net/~blkhrse/index.html
                                                              >
                                                              I wondered if you'd done the Glastonbury Chairs for the Barony, had
                                                              a chance to look at them this year, they looked good. I had admired
                                                              the Bench earlier also.
                                                              Hadn't seen the Ming Chair before, WOW, doesn't even come close

                                                              TTFN
                                                              Ralg
                                                              AnTir
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