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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Digest Number 786

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  • Shea
    Also working on pavilion poles. Shea ... From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent: Jul 13, 2005 11:02 AM To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Subject:
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 13, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Also working on pavilion poles.

      Shea


      -----Original Message-----
      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Jul 13, 2005 11:02 AM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Digest Number 786

      There are 9 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Pole Followup
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      2. Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints
      From: "ewdysar" <ewdysar@...>
      3. current project almost done
      From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
      4. Re: current project almost done
      From: Johann Friedrich <yahoo@...>
      5. Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints
      From: "Chris Larsson (Hrelgar)" <igelkottinus@...>
      6. RE: current project almost done
      From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
      7. RE: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints
      From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
      8. Re: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      9. Re: current project almost done
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:58:14 -0400
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      Subject: Pole Followup

      Thanks for all the advice on the poles ...

      But now I have another question.

      I do want to do one of these options, but want to make sure it works,
      and is solid.

      I also want it to last and last and last.

      So, I'd love to do it in something like oak. But the price is prohibitive.

      Right now I'm looking at:

      Poplar 3x3 - $60 for the ridge alone
      Pine 4x4 - approx $25 for the ridge

      The price difference there is hard to ignore.

      Oh, a final question. Should I stick with the tried/true - Metal
      spikes to hold the legs to the ridge? Or do you think that being
      fancier ... ie, cutting mortise/tenon sockets, would be a nice way to
      go. (I only worry that without glue, that the tenons might break off.
      So they'd definately be 'hefty' tenons, but still ...

      Siegfried

      --
      _________________________________________________________________________
      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:58:22 -0000
      From: "ewdysar" <ewdysar@...>
      Subject: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

      I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
      Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
      mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
      shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
      with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
      in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
      structural than show.

      Eric, aka Eirikr

      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
      <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
      > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
      > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
      > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
      > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
      (or
      > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
      disassembled
      > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
      > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
      looking
      > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
      does.
      >
      > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
      while
      > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
      > joints. And I'd like some advice.
      >
      > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
      render
      > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
      > ___________________________________
      > /
      > ---[]---[]---[]---
      > _______________________/___________
      >
      > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
      slide
      > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
      at
      > movement by the joint binds them all up.
      >
      > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
      > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
      this
      > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
      > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
      >
      > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
      > _____________________________________
      > __\
      > __..--''
      > __..-[]-''
      > __..--''
      > _____\_______________________________
      >
      > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
      > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
      > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
      >
      > So, now, the questions:
      >
      > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
      Besides
      > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
      > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
      anywhere
      > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
      where
      > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
      >
      > B) Followup....
      > Thanks,
      > Sorry for the long email,
      > Siegfried
      >





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
      Subject: current project almost done

      White oak trestle tables...

      what's everyone else working on?

      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:57 -0700 (MST)
      From: Johann Friedrich <yahoo@...>
      Subject: Re: current project almost done

      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
      Hash: SHA1

      Work in this weather? That's what the winter is for.... when the temps
      are nice and comfortable for working outside. =-)

      Despite the 111 degree days, I'm slowly working on makeing new head and
      foot rails and a headboard for the rope bed since the queen size bed
      wasn't going to fit in the new pavilion. Of course now I'll have two
      different size configurations, depending on how it's going to be used.

      I still have a settle table (home use, not camping) and some stools on my
      "to-do" list. I'm sure there's more, but I'll think about them more when
      it starts to cool down again.

      On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart wrote:

      > White oak trestle tables...
      >
      > what's everyone else working on?
      >
      > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
      >
      > Aude Aliquid Dignum
      > ' Dare Something Worthy '

      - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=[The Realm of Darkness]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= O-
      Ken Bowley yahoo@...
      AKA: Lord Johann Friedrich http://www.trod.org
      - -=-=-=-=[Per saltire sable and gules, in fess two rapiers Or]=-=-=-=-
      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
      Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

      iD8DBQFC1EMCgLMESF6A76wRAmXsAKCLJm3tbD//rd1q7O2uuJA8qzWjJwCfaCDK
      RYhXW35X6IIpCZTKKh2WuUg=
      =c2vc
      -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:35:48 -0000
      From: "Chris Larsson (Hrelgar)" <igelkottinus@...>
      Subject: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

      I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
      that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
      (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
      of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

      But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
      actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
      hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
      tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

      Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
      easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
      could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
      and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
      Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
      between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
      the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
      the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

      I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

      So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
      application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
      with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
      blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
      a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
      together during assembly.

      I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
      joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
      would accomplish the same thing.

      Chris

      > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
      > Besides
      > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
      > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
      > anywhere
      > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
      > where
      > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
      > >





      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 6
      Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:22:15 -0400
      From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
      Subject: RE: current project almost done

      Finishing up a 15th century Flemish folding side table.

      Master Will
      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood
      -----Original Message-----
      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:07 PM
      To: sawdust
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] current project almost done

      White oak trestle tables...

      what's everyone else working on?

      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

      Yahoo! Groups Links







      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 7
      Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:24:58 -0400
      From: "Bill McNutt" <mcnutt@...>
      Subject: RE: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

      It's been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm
      weather. It's when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting.
      Neither of these joints do if for me when I think of pitching my pavilion at
      the Lilies War, where occasional gusts of 30 mph are thought of as "breezy."
      How are these things going to hold up with the side-ways forces that pop
      back and forth?

      Master Will
      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


      -----Original Message-----
      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Larsson
      (Hrelgar)
      Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

      I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
      that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
      (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
      of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

      But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
      actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
      hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
      tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

      Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
      easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
      could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
      and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
      Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
      between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
      the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
      the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

      I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

      So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
      application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
      with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
      blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
      a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
      together during assembly.

      I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
      joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
      would accomplish the same thing.

      Chris

      > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
      > Besides
      > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
      > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
      > anywhere
      > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
      > where
      > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
      > >





      Yahoo! Groups Links









      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 8
      Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:57:30 -0400
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

      Ahh, yes, that's it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm
      visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later
      episode made gazebo/type thing, using that joint to hook long cross
      pieces together.

      Thanks, that had been bugging me.

      Siegfried


      On 7/12/05, ewdysar <ewdysar@...> wrote:
      > I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
      > Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
      > mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
      > shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
      > with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
      > in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
      > structural than show.
      >
      > Eric, aka Eirikr
      >
      > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
      > <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
      > > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
      > > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
      > > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
      > > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
      > (or
      > > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
      > disassembled
      > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
      > > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
      > looking
      > > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
      > does.
      > >
      > > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
      > while
      > > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
      > > joints. And I'd like some advice.
      > >
      > > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
      > render
      > > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
      > > ___________________________________
      > > /
      > > ---[]---[]---[]---
      > > _______________________/___________
      > >
      > > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
      > slide
      > > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
      > at
      > > movement by the joint binds them all up.
      > >
      > > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
      > > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
      > this
      > > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
      > > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
      > >
      > > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
      > > _____________________________________
      > > __\
      > > __..--''
      > > __..-[]-''
      > > __..--''
      > > _____\_______________________________
      > >
      > > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
      > > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
      > > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
      > >
      > > So, now, the questions:
      > >
      > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
      > Besides
      > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
      > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
      > anywhere
      > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
      > where
      > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
      > >
      > > B) Followup....
      > > Thanks,
      > > Sorry for the long email,
      > > Siegfried
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      _________________________________________________________________________
      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 9
      Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:58:20 -0400
      From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      Subject: Re: current project almost done

      > what's everyone else working on?

      Pavilion poles? *sheepish grin*

      --
      _________________________________________________________________________
      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________


      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links




      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Craig Robert Pierpont
      Siegfried, I d worry more about the weight than the price. You ll only pay the price once but you ll be schlepping them around for a long tome. Craig Robert
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 13, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Siegfried,
           I'd worry more about the weight than the price. You'll only pay the price once but you'll be schlepping them around for a long tome.
         
        Craig Robert
         
        Craig R. Pierpont
        Another Era Lutherie
        www.anotherera.com


        medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:58:14 -0400
           From: Siegfried <SiegfriedFaust@...>
        Subject: Pole Followup

        So, I'd love to do it in something like oak.  But the price is
        prohibitive.

        Right now I'm looking at:

        Poplar 3x3 - $60 for the ridge alone
        Pine 4x4 - approx $25 for the ridge

        The price difference there is hard to ignore.

        Siegfried

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