Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

Expand Messages
  • Joseph Hayes
    ... You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2 ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It s nice to have
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
      >
      > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge

      You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
      ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
      nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.

      Ulrich




      ____________________________________________________
      Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
      http://auctions.yahoo.com/
    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
      In that it was a joint ... What about twisting forces? Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        In that it was a joint
        > that disassembled
        > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
        > no nothing.


        What about twisting forces?



        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

        Aude Aliquid Dignum
        ' Dare Something Worthy '



        __________________________________
        Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
        Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
        http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
        [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold spray paint by the case Charles.... Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          \[shiny brass is always
          > nice]...

          As long as you do not go back to buying
          gold spray paint by the case Charles....



          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          Aude Aliquid Dignum
          ' Dare Something Worthy '



          ____________________________________________________
          Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
          http://auctions.yahoo.com/
        • Siegfried
          Yes, I could. My point was. No, I don t want ;) It would get in the way with the layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed) Siegfried ... --
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes, I could.

            My point was. No, I don't want ;) It would get in the way with the
            layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed)

            Siegfried


            On 7/11/05, Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
            >
            > >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
            > >
            > > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge
            >
            > You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
            > ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
            > nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.
            >
            > Ulrich
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________________
            > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
            > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            _________________________________________________________________________
            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
            Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
            Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
          • Siegfried
            If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The only way that they
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via
              twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The
              only way that they could come apart, in practice, is via 'perfect
              lateral movement' ... any amount of twist or pressure on the joint
              itself, just binds it tight.

              Now, not saying that the wood might not decide to crack itself open
              ... but, still ;)

              Siegfried


              On 7/11/05, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
              > In that it was a joint
              > > that disassembled
              > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
              > > no nothing.
              >
              >
              > What about twisting forces?
              >
              >
              >
              > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
              >
              > Aude Aliquid Dignum
              > ' Dare Something Worthy '
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
              > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
              > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              _________________________________________________________________________
              THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
              Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
              Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
              http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              ... If I m understanding the place it broke.... ... xxxxxxx---------- ... My father taught me a trick that he used in the reserves... Take a 1/4 bolt like a
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                >
                > What finally broke was one of the laps 'split off'
                > down the length of
                > the ridge (diagonally though) ... given they were
                > only 3/4" thick.
                > Of course, it happened when I 'dropped' the pole
                > *sigh*

                If I'm understanding the place it broke....

                ---------------------
                xxxxxxx----------
                -----------


                My father taught me a trick that he used
                in the reserves...

                Take a 1/4" bolt like a long rivet and put it
                through the board just before the lap. Get one
                long enough to cutt off the threads and peen the
                end over a washer like a rivet. It will add lots
                of strenght to it.

                the 'I' is the bolt.....

                -------I----------- --I-------
                I --------- -------- I
                -------I-- ----------I-------





                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '



                __________________________________
                Yahoo! Mail
                Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
                http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
              • James Winkler
                That would take real brass ... ;-S [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!] Chas. [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  That would take 'real brass'... ;-S   [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!]
                  Chas.
                   

                  \[shiny brass is always
                  > nice]...

                  As long as you do not go back to buying
                  gold spray paint by the case Charles....



                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                     Aude Aliquid Dignum
                       ' Dare Something Worthy '

                • ewdysar
                  I believe that I have seen examples of the Norm joint in the Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman mansion. The house also
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                    Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                    mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                    shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                    with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                    in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                    structural than show.

                    Eric, aka Eirikr

                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                    <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                    > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                    > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                    > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                    > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                    (or
                    > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                    disassembled
                    > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                    > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                    looking
                    > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                    does.
                    >
                    > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                    while
                    > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                    > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                    >
                    > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                    render
                    > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                    > ___________________________________
                    > /
                    > ---[]---[]---[]---
                    > _______________________/___________
                    >
                    > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                    slide
                    > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                    at
                    > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                    >
                    > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                    > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                    this
                    > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                    > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                    >
                    > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                    > _____________________________________
                    > __\
                    > __..--''
                    > __..-[]-''
                    > __..--''
                    > _____\_______________________________
                    >
                    > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                    > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                    > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                    >
                    > So, now, the questions:
                    >
                    > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                    Besides
                    > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                    > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                    anywhere
                    > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                    where
                    > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                    >
                    > B) Followup....
                    > Thanks,
                    > Sorry for the long email,
                    > Siegfried
                    >
                  • Chris Larsson (Hrelgar)
                    I ve been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure (assuming beam is
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                      that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                      (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                      of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                      But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                      actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                      hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                      tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                      Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                      easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                      could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                      and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                      Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                      between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                      the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                      the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                      I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                      So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                      application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                      with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                      blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                      a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                      together during assembly.

                      I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                      joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                      would accomplish the same thing.

                      Chris

                      > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                      > Besides
                      > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                      > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                      > anywhere
                      > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                      > where
                      > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                      > >
                    • Bill McNutt
                      It s been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm weather. It s when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting. Neither of
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It's been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm
                        weather. It's when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting.
                        Neither of these joints do if for me when I think of pitching my pavilion at
                        the Lilies War, where occasional gusts of 30 mph are thought of as "breezy."
                        How are these things going to hold up with the side-ways forces that pop
                        back and forth?

                        Master Will
                        http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Larsson
                        (Hrelgar)
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

                        I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                        that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                        (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                        of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                        But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                        actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                        hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                        tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                        Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                        easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                        could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                        and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                        Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                        between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                        the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                        the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                        I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                        So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                        application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                        with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                        blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                        a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                        together during assembly.

                        I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                        joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                        would accomplish the same thing.

                        Chris

                        > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                        > Besides
                        > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                        > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                        > anywhere
                        > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                        > where
                        > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                        > >





                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Siegfried
                        Ahh, yes, that s it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later episode made
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ahh, yes, that's it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm
                          visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later
                          episode made gazebo/type thing, using that joint to hook long cross
                          pieces together.

                          Thanks, that had been bugging me.

                          Siegfried


                          On 7/12/05, ewdysar <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                          > I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                          > Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                          > mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                          > shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                          > with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                          > in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                          > structural than show.
                          >
                          > Eric, aka Eirikr
                          >
                          > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                          > <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                          > > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                          > > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                          > > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                          > > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                          > (or
                          > > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                          > disassembled
                          > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                          > > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                          > looking
                          > > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                          > does.
                          > >
                          > > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                          > while
                          > > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                          > > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                          > >
                          > > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                          > render
                          > > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                          > > ___________________________________
                          > > /
                          > > ---[]---[]---[]---
                          > > _______________________/___________
                          > >
                          > > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                          > slide
                          > > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                          > at
                          > > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                          > >
                          > > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                          > > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                          > this
                          > > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                          > > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                          > >
                          > > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                          > > _____________________________________
                          > > __\
                          > > __..--''
                          > > __..-[]-''
                          > > __..--''
                          > > _____\_______________________________
                          > >
                          > > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                          > > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                          > > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                          > >
                          > > So, now, the questions:
                          > >
                          > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                          > Besides
                          > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                          > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                          > anywhere
                          > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                          > where
                          > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                          > >
                          > > B) Followup....
                          > > Thanks,
                          > > Sorry for the long email,
                          > > Siegfried
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          _________________________________________________________________________
                          THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                          Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                          Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                          http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.