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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

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  • James Winkler
    The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn t rely on a single wedge point to stay tight. Assuming that you re NOT running a
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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      The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn't rely on a single wedge point to stay tight.   Assuming that you're NOT running a center pole...  any wind along the ridge line could theoretically flex the joint and loosen the wedges... on a single wedge system [b]...  I don't know HOW critical this is... but its something to think about.   Ulrich's observation about 'joining' hefty stuff' is well taken...  a 4x4 has more surface area (width v. length) and deeper wedge pockets...    what MIGHT be helpful is to use a small sheet of tin or brass on either end of the scraf joint to form a 'pocket' for the tongues...   could add to the *appearance* [shiny brass is always nice]... and reduce the risk of the lateral movement that might loosen the wedges...
       
       ___________________________________
            /
            ---[]---[]---[]---
      _______________________/___________

       
      ___________________________________
         !  / !            !     !

         !  --![]---[]---[]!--   !
      ___!____!____________!_/___!_______
       
       
      ... just my two pence...
      Chas.
       
    • Siegfried
      ... No ... It s a walltent ... 8 peak, 14.5 ridge My previous poles (which lasted a good 3-4 years of Pennsic Abuse, plus other uses), were 2x6 8 -ish
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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        > > B) Followup. My previous ridge was a 2x6 (pine), vertical, and held
        > > up fine. Cept for the bad joinery in the middle which is what
        > > failed. I'm wondering how well this techniques will work in 2x6
        > > stock, as opposed to a 4x4, which seems to be more 'what they were
        > > built for', ie, joining 'hefty stuff'.
        >
        > Are you planning to use a center pole?
        >
        > Ulrich

        No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge

        My previous poles (which lasted a good 3-4 years of Pennsic Abuse,
        plus other uses), were 2x6 8'-ish uprights ...

        And the 14.5' 2x6 ridge. Joined in the middle with a half-lap joint
        for about 4' ... and with 4 hefty bolts holding the lap together.

        What finally broke was one of the laps 'split off' down the length of
        the ridge (diagonally though) ... given they were only 3/4" thick.
        Of course, it happened when I 'dropped' the pole *sigh*

        However, until that it worked fine for years. So no, I don't plan on
        using a center pole, and do want a joint that will work well without
        one.

        Siegfried
        --
        _________________________________________________________________________
        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      • Siegfried
        ... Hrmmm, well, I think the idea is that once edged, that it can t really flex, since the tongues are tight in the pockets. But the point in taken.
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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          On 7/11/05, James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
          > The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn't
          > rely on a single wedge point to stay tight. Assuming that you're NOT
          > running a center pole... any wind along the ridge line could theoretically
          > flex the joint and loosen the wedges... on a single wedge system [b]... I
          > don't know HOW critical this is... but its something to think about.

          Hrmmm, well, I think the idea is that once edged, that it can't really
          flex, since the tongues are tight in the pockets. But the point in
          taken.

          Personally I really liked the concept of the 'Norm' method ... though
          it's kinda a cross between a half-lap and a scarf.

          Which is what got me to thinking. Given that, I wonder if it's 'less
          strong', since you will have to take (for example) that 4x4, and turn
          it into 2 2x4's for the interlocking-ness

          Whereas the true scarf version, you don't really have that, you have
          thicker wood the entire length, and only at 'one point', do you have
          only 2 2x4's widths.

          I also found it odd that Norm's joint, isn't mentioned on any of the
          Timber Framing sites, yet they all mention the scarf. Almost as if
          there is something inherantly wrong with that concept, which the
          Timber framers know about.

          Siegfried

          --
          _________________________________________________________________________
          THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
          Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
          Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
          http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
        • James Winkler
          I note in your previous post that the ridge poll split down the length... a brass pocket would also re-inforce the ridgepole along the grain run if it were
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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            I note in your previous post that the ridge poll split down the length...  a 'brass pocket' would also re-inforce the ridgepole along the grain run if it were 'wrapped' around each end... and thereby reduce the splitting possibility...
             
            I've also seen a scarf joint that goes something like this:
             
             
            ------\---------------=---/----------------
                      \              O       /
            A          \                    /           B
                         \    O           /       
            ----------\----------/---------------------
            1           2a             1a             2
             
            Basically A overlaps B  from 1a down the length of 1
                        B overlaps A  from 2a down the length of 2
                                                      
            these are 'half lap' scarfs that are either wedge fastened or bolted through the holes...  as this is a ridge pole...  the bearing area (the diagonals) have long and broad shoulders for bearing the weight...    the half lapping handles any lateral stresses...   With properly constructed wedges and wedge pockets this could draw the shoulder joints up nice and tight...  except for the thickness of the boards (which might be a bit thin...)  ... you could even drive tapered pins (one from each side) into slightly offset holes to draw the joint together...
             
            Not as elegant as some of the other designs... but simple to construct and bearing along the entire width of the beam... baring and warpage in the laps..
             
            ... just a thought...
             
            Chas.
          • Joseph Hayes
            ... You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2 ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It s nice to have
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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              >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
              >
              > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge

              You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
              ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
              nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.

              Ulrich




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            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              In that it was a joint ... What about twisting forces? Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                In that it was a joint
                > that disassembled
                > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
                > no nothing.


                What about twisting forces?



                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '



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              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold spray paint by the case Charles.... Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                  \[shiny brass is always
                  > nice]...

                  As long as you do not go back to buying
                  gold spray paint by the case Charles....



                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  ____________________________________________________
                  Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
                  http://auctions.yahoo.com/
                • Siegfried
                  Yes, I could. My point was. No, I don t want ;) It would get in the way with the layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed) Siegfried ... --
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                    Yes, I could.

                    My point was. No, I don't want ;) It would get in the way with the
                    layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed)

                    Siegfried


                    On 7/11/05, Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
                    > >
                    > > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge
                    >
                    > You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
                    > ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
                    > nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.
                    >
                    > Ulrich
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________________________________________________
                    > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
                    > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    _________________________________________________________________________
                    THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                    Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                    Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                    http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                  • Siegfried
                    If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The only way that they
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                      If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via
                      twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The
                      only way that they could come apart, in practice, is via 'perfect
                      lateral movement' ... any amount of twist or pressure on the joint
                      itself, just binds it tight.

                      Now, not saying that the wood might not decide to crack itself open
                      ... but, still ;)

                      Siegfried


                      On 7/11/05, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                      > In that it was a joint
                      > > that disassembled
                      > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
                      > > no nothing.
                      >
                      >
                      > What about twisting forces?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                      >
                      > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
                      > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
                      > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                      > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      _________________________________________________________________________
                      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                      ... If I m understanding the place it broke.... ... xxxxxxx---------- ... My father taught me a trick that he used in the reserves... Take a 1/4 bolt like a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                        >
                        > What finally broke was one of the laps 'split off'
                        > down the length of
                        > the ridge (diagonally though) ... given they were
                        > only 3/4" thick.
                        > Of course, it happened when I 'dropped' the pole
                        > *sigh*

                        If I'm understanding the place it broke....

                        ---------------------
                        xxxxxxx----------
                        -----------


                        My father taught me a trick that he used
                        in the reserves...

                        Take a 1/4" bolt like a long rivet and put it
                        through the board just before the lap. Get one
                        long enough to cutt off the threads and peen the
                        end over a washer like a rivet. It will add lots
                        of strenght to it.

                        the 'I' is the bolt.....

                        -------I----------- --I-------
                        I --------- -------- I
                        -------I-- ----------I-------





                        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                        Aude Aliquid Dignum
                        ' Dare Something Worthy '



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                      • James Winkler
                        That would take real brass ... ;-S [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!] Chas. [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                          That would take 'real brass'... ;-S   [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!]
                          Chas.
                           

                          \[shiny brass is always
                          > nice]...

                          As long as you do not go back to buying
                          gold spray paint by the case Charles....



                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                             Aude Aliquid Dignum
                               ' Dare Something Worthy '

                        • ewdysar
                          I believe that I have seen examples of the Norm joint in the Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman mansion. The house also
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
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                            I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                            Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                            mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                            shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                            with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                            in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                            structural than show.

                            Eric, aka Eirikr

                            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                            <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                            > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                            > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                            > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                            > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                            (or
                            > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                            disassembled
                            > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                            > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                            looking
                            > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                            does.
                            >
                            > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                            while
                            > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                            > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                            >
                            > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                            render
                            > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                            > ___________________________________
                            > /
                            > ---[]---[]---[]---
                            > _______________________/___________
                            >
                            > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                            slide
                            > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                            at
                            > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                            >
                            > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                            > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                            this
                            > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                            > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                            >
                            > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                            > _____________________________________
                            > __\
                            > __..--''
                            > __..-[]-''
                            > __..--''
                            > _____\_______________________________
                            >
                            > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                            > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                            > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                            >
                            > So, now, the questions:
                            >
                            > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                            Besides
                            > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                            > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                            anywhere
                            > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                            where
                            > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                            >
                            > B) Followup....
                            > Thanks,
                            > Sorry for the long email,
                            > Siegfried
                            >
                          • Chris Larsson (Hrelgar)
                            I ve been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure (assuming beam is
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
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                              I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                              that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                              (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                              of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                              But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                              actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                              hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                              tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                              Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                              easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                              could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                              and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                              Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                              between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                              the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                              the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                              I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                              So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                              application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                              with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                              blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                              a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                              together during assembly.

                              I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                              joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                              would accomplish the same thing.

                              Chris

                              > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                              > Besides
                              > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                              > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                              > anywhere
                              > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                              > where
                              > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                              > >
                            • Bill McNutt
                              It s been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm weather. It s when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting. Neither of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                It's been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm
                                weather. It's when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting.
                                Neither of these joints do if for me when I think of pitching my pavilion at
                                the Lilies War, where occasional gusts of 30 mph are thought of as "breezy."
                                How are these things going to hold up with the side-ways forces that pop
                                back and forth?

                                Master Will
                                http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Larsson
                                (Hrelgar)
                                Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

                                I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                                that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                                (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                                of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                                But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                                actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                                hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                                tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                                Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                                easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                                could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                                and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                                Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                                between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                                the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                                the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                                I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                                So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                                application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                                with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                                blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                                a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                                together during assembly.

                                I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                                joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                                would accomplish the same thing.

                                Chris

                                > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                                > Besides
                                > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                                > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                                > anywhere
                                > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                                > where
                                > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                                > >





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                              • Siegfried
                                Ahh, yes, that s it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later episode made
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                  Ahh, yes, that's it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm
                                  visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later
                                  episode made gazebo/type thing, using that joint to hook long cross
                                  pieces together.

                                  Thanks, that had been bugging me.

                                  Siegfried


                                  On 7/12/05, ewdysar <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                                  > I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                                  > Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                                  > mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                                  > shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                                  > with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                                  > in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                                  > structural than show.
                                  >
                                  > Eric, aka Eirikr
                                  >
                                  > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                                  > <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                                  > > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                                  > > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                                  > > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                                  > > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                                  > (or
                                  > > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                                  > disassembled
                                  > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                                  > > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                                  > looking
                                  > > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                                  > does.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                                  > while
                                  > > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                                  > > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                                  > >
                                  > > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                                  > render
                                  > > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                                  > > ___________________________________
                                  > > /
                                  > > ---[]---[]---[]---
                                  > > _______________________/___________
                                  > >
                                  > > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                                  > slide
                                  > > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                                  > at
                                  > > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                                  > >
                                  > > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                                  > > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                                  > this
                                  > > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                                  > > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                                  > >
                                  > > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                                  > > _____________________________________
                                  > > __\
                                  > > __..--''
                                  > > __..-[]-''
                                  > > __..--''
                                  > > _____\_______________________________
                                  > >
                                  > > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                                  > > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                                  > > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                                  > >
                                  > > So, now, the questions:
                                  > >
                                  > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                                  > Besides
                                  > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                                  > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                                  > anywhere
                                  > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                                  > where
                                  > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                                  > >
                                  > > B) Followup....
                                  > > Thanks,
                                  > > Sorry for the long email,
                                  > > Siegfried
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  --
                                  _________________________________________________________________________
                                  THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                  Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                  Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                  http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
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