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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

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  • maf@gleichen.ca
    If you want more wood joints there are a ton in the back of English Historic Carpenty by Cecil A. Hewett. Mark ... From: Siegfried
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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      If you want more wood joints there are a ton in the back of 'English
      Historic Carpenty' by Cecil A. Hewett.


      Mark



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Siegfried" <SiegfriedFaust@...>
      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:14 AM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints


      > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
      > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ... knowing I needed to
      > make a new one for this year.
      >
      > Well, I've procrastinated long enough, and need to do it now ;)
      >
      > My ridge line is 14.5', and I don't like carrying that long of a pole
      > around with me, so I wish to break it in half.
      >
      > However, while I've seen all sorts of ingenious hinge setups, and
      > bolted half-laps, and so on used ... and used them ... I've decided to
      > go more 'woodworking' based.
      >
      > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
      > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint' (or
      > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that disassembled
      > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
      > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who looking
      > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it does.
      >
      > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and while
      > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
      > joints. And I'd like some advice.
      >
      > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go render
      > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
      > ___________________________________
      > /
      > ---[]---[]---[]---
      > _______________________/___________
      >
      > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to slide
      > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt at
      > movement by the joint binds them all up.
      >
      > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
      > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of this
      > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
      > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
      >
      > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
      > _____________________________________
      > __\
      > __..--''
      > __..-[]-''
      > __..--''
      > _____\_______________________________
      >
      > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
      > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
      > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
      >
      > So, now, the questions:
      >
      > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other? Besides
      > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
      > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint anywhere
      > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show where
      > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
      >
      > B) Followup. My previous ridge was a 2x6 (pine), vertical, and held
      > up fine. Cept for the bad joinery in the middle which is what failed.
      > I'm wondering how well this techniques will work in 2x6 stock, as
      > opposed to a 4x4, which seems to be more 'what they were built for',
      > ie, joining 'hefty stuff'.
      > Again, any thoughts? I don't mind using a pine 4x4, except that
      > I'll need to seriously taper the top edges of it to make it fit/work
      > within the tent.
      > I'd love to use something more sturdy (popular, heck Oak) ... but
      > I just don't see that happening (price, weight, etc).
      > So again, thoughts?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Sorry for the long email,
      > Siegfried
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > _________________________________________________________________________
      > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
      > Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
      > Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
      > http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • James Winkler
      The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn t rely on a single wedge point to stay tight. Assuming that you re NOT running a
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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        The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn't rely on a single wedge point to stay tight.   Assuming that you're NOT running a center pole...  any wind along the ridge line could theoretically flex the joint and loosen the wedges... on a single wedge system [b]...  I don't know HOW critical this is... but its something to think about.   Ulrich's observation about 'joining' hefty stuff' is well taken...  a 4x4 has more surface area (width v. length) and deeper wedge pockets...    what MIGHT be helpful is to use a small sheet of tin or brass on either end of the scraf joint to form a 'pocket' for the tongues...   could add to the *appearance* [shiny brass is always nice]... and reduce the risk of the lateral movement that might loosen the wedges...
         
         ___________________________________
              /
              ---[]---[]---[]---
        _______________________/___________

         
        ___________________________________
           !  / !            !     !

           !  --![]---[]---[]!--   !
        ___!____!____________!_/___!_______
         
         
        ... just my two pence...
        Chas.
         
      • Siegfried
        ... No ... It s a walltent ... 8 peak, 14.5 ridge My previous poles (which lasted a good 3-4 years of Pennsic Abuse, plus other uses), were 2x6 8 -ish
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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          > > B) Followup. My previous ridge was a 2x6 (pine), vertical, and held
          > > up fine. Cept for the bad joinery in the middle which is what
          > > failed. I'm wondering how well this techniques will work in 2x6
          > > stock, as opposed to a 4x4, which seems to be more 'what they were
          > > built for', ie, joining 'hefty stuff'.
          >
          > Are you planning to use a center pole?
          >
          > Ulrich

          No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge

          My previous poles (which lasted a good 3-4 years of Pennsic Abuse,
          plus other uses), were 2x6 8'-ish uprights ...

          And the 14.5' 2x6 ridge. Joined in the middle with a half-lap joint
          for about 4' ... and with 4 hefty bolts holding the lap together.

          What finally broke was one of the laps 'split off' down the length of
          the ridge (diagonally though) ... given they were only 3/4" thick.
          Of course, it happened when I 'dropped' the pole *sigh*

          However, until that it worked fine for years. So no, I don't plan on
          using a center pole, and do want a joint that will work well without
          one.

          Siegfried
          --
          _________________________________________________________________________
          THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
          Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
          Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
          http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
        • Siegfried
          ... Hrmmm, well, I think the idea is that once edged, that it can t really flex, since the tongues are tight in the pockets. But the point in taken.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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            On 7/11/05, James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
            > The only thing I could see is that the multiple wedged [a] design doesn't
            > rely on a single wedge point to stay tight. Assuming that you're NOT
            > running a center pole... any wind along the ridge line could theoretically
            > flex the joint and loosen the wedges... on a single wedge system [b]... I
            > don't know HOW critical this is... but its something to think about.

            Hrmmm, well, I think the idea is that once edged, that it can't really
            flex, since the tongues are tight in the pockets. But the point in
            taken.

            Personally I really liked the concept of the 'Norm' method ... though
            it's kinda a cross between a half-lap and a scarf.

            Which is what got me to thinking. Given that, I wonder if it's 'less
            strong', since you will have to take (for example) that 4x4, and turn
            it into 2 2x4's for the interlocking-ness

            Whereas the true scarf version, you don't really have that, you have
            thicker wood the entire length, and only at 'one point', do you have
            only 2 2x4's widths.

            I also found it odd that Norm's joint, isn't mentioned on any of the
            Timber Framing sites, yet they all mention the scarf. Almost as if
            there is something inherantly wrong with that concept, which the
            Timber framers know about.

            Siegfried

            --
            _________________________________________________________________________
            THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
            Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
            Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
            http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
          • James Winkler
            I note in your previous post that the ridge poll split down the length... a brass pocket would also re-inforce the ridgepole along the grain run if it were
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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              I note in your previous post that the ridge poll split down the length...  a 'brass pocket' would also re-inforce the ridgepole along the grain run if it were 'wrapped' around each end... and thereby reduce the splitting possibility...
               
              I've also seen a scarf joint that goes something like this:
               
               
              ------\---------------=---/----------------
                        \              O       /
              A          \                    /           B
                           \    O           /       
              ----------\----------/---------------------
              1           2a             1a             2
               
              Basically A overlaps B  from 1a down the length of 1
                          B overlaps A  from 2a down the length of 2
                                                        
              these are 'half lap' scarfs that are either wedge fastened or bolted through the holes...  as this is a ridge pole...  the bearing area (the diagonals) have long and broad shoulders for bearing the weight...    the half lapping handles any lateral stresses...   With properly constructed wedges and wedge pockets this could draw the shoulder joints up nice and tight...  except for the thickness of the boards (which might be a bit thin...)  ... you could even drive tapered pins (one from each side) into slightly offset holes to draw the joint together...
               
              Not as elegant as some of the other designs... but simple to construct and bearing along the entire width of the beam... baring and warpage in the laps..
               
              ... just a thought...
               
              Chas.
            • Joseph Hayes
              ... You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2 ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It s nice to have
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
                >
                > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge

                You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
                ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
                nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.

                Ulrich




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              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                In that it was a joint ... What about twisting forces? Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                  In that it was a joint
                  > that disassembled
                  > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
                  > no nothing.


                  What about twisting forces?



                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



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                • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold spray paint by the case Charles.... Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                    \[shiny brass is always
                    > nice]...

                    As long as you do not go back to buying
                    gold spray paint by the case Charles....



                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '



                    ____________________________________________________
                    Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
                    http://auctions.yahoo.com/
                  • Siegfried
                    Yes, I could. My point was. No, I don t want ;) It would get in the way with the layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed) Siegfried ... --
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                      Yes, I could.

                      My point was. No, I don't want ;) It would get in the way with the
                      layout that we prefer (and our huge mucking bed)

                      Siegfried


                      On 7/11/05, Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >> Are you planning to use a center pole?
                      > >
                      > > No ... It's a walltent ... 8' peak, 14.5' ridge
                      >
                      > You can still have a center pole. I have a 10x16 wall tent with 2
                      > ridge poles and three uprights made from standard 2x4s (painted). It's
                      > nice to have something in the center of the room to hang stuff from.
                      >
                      > Ulrich
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________________________________________________
                      > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
                      > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      _________________________________________________________________________
                      THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                      Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                      Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                      http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                    • Siegfried
                      If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The only way that they
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                        If you look at those designed, they are meant to not come apart via
                        twisting either. They are actually rather ingenious I think ... The
                        only way that they could come apart, in practice, is via 'perfect
                        lateral movement' ... any amount of twist or pressure on the joint
                        itself, just binds it tight.

                        Now, not saying that the wood might not decide to crack itself open
                        ... but, still ;)

                        Siegfried


                        On 7/11/05, Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                        > In that it was a joint
                        > > that disassembled
                        > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts,
                        > > no nothing.
                        >
                        >
                        > What about twisting forces?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                        >
                        > Aude Aliquid Dignum
                        > ' Dare Something Worthy '
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________
                        > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
                        > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                        > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        _________________________________________________________________________
                        THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                        Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                        Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                        http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                        ... If I m understanding the place it broke.... ... xxxxxxx---------- ... My father taught me a trick that he used in the reserves... Take a 1/4 bolt like a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                          >
                          > What finally broke was one of the laps 'split off'
                          > down the length of
                          > the ridge (diagonally though) ... given they were
                          > only 3/4" thick.
                          > Of course, it happened when I 'dropped' the pole
                          > *sigh*

                          If I'm understanding the place it broke....

                          ---------------------
                          xxxxxxx----------
                          -----------


                          My father taught me a trick that he used
                          in the reserves...

                          Take a 1/4" bolt like a long rivet and put it
                          through the board just before the lap. Get one
                          long enough to cutt off the threads and peen the
                          end over a washer like a rivet. It will add lots
                          of strenght to it.

                          the 'I' is the bolt.....

                          -------I----------- --I-------
                          I --------- -------- I
                          -------I-- ----------I-------





                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                          ' Dare Something Worthy '



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                        • James Winkler
                          That would take real brass ... ;-S [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!] Chas. [shiny brass is always ... As long as you do not go back to buying gold
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 11, 2005
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                            That would take 'real brass'... ;-S   [Hey... looks good from 10 feet or so!!!!]
                            Chas.
                             

                            \[shiny brass is always
                            > nice]...

                            As long as you do not go back to buying
                            gold spray paint by the case Charles....



                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                               Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                 ' Dare Something Worthy '

                          • ewdysar
                            I believe that I have seen examples of the Norm joint in the Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman mansion. The house also
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
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                              I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                              Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                              mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                              shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                              with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                              in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                              structural than show.

                              Eric, aka Eirikr

                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                              <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                              > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                              > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                              > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                              > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                              (or
                              > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                              disassembled
                              > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                              > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                              looking
                              > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                              does.
                              >
                              > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                              while
                              > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                              > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                              >
                              > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                              render
                              > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                              > ___________________________________
                              > /
                              > ---[]---[]---[]---
                              > _______________________/___________
                              >
                              > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                              slide
                              > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                              at
                              > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                              >
                              > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                              > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                              this
                              > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                              > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                              >
                              > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                              > _____________________________________
                              > __\
                              > __..--''
                              > __..-[]-''
                              > __..--''
                              > _____\_______________________________
                              >
                              > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                              > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                              > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                              >
                              > So, now, the questions:
                              >
                              > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                              Besides
                              > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                              > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                              anywhere
                              > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                              where
                              > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                              >
                              > B) Followup....
                              > Thanks,
                              > Sorry for the long email,
                              > Siegfried
                              >
                            • Chris Larsson (Hrelgar)
                              I ve been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure (assuming beam is
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 12, 2005
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                                I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                                that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                                (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                                of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                                But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                                actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                                hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                                tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                                Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                                easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                                could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                                and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                                Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                                between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                                the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                                the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                                I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                                So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                                application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                                with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                                blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                                a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                                together during assembly.

                                I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                                joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                                would accomplish the same thing.

                                Chris

                                > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                                > Besides
                                > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                                > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                                > anywhere
                                > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                                > where
                                > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                                > >
                              • Bill McNutt
                                It s been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm weather. It s when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting. Neither of
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                  It's been my experience that butt joints and scotch tape will work in calm
                                  weather. It's when the wind starts to pick up that things get exciting.
                                  Neither of these joints do if for me when I think of pitching my pavilion at
                                  the Lilies War, where occasional gusts of 30 mph are thought of as "breezy."
                                  How are these things going to hold up with the side-ways forces that pop
                                  back and forth?

                                  Master Will
                                  http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Larsson
                                  (Hrelgar)
                                  Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:36 PM
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Pavilion Poles & Timber-framing Scarf Joints

                                  I've been pondering this all day. On the surface it would seem to me
                                  that the norm joint would perform better with downward pressure
                                  (assuming beam is horizontal) Since there's more wood available (half
                                  of the beam) in the hook portion of the joint.

                                  But then I noticed that the block in the timber frame joint is
                                  actually a wedge and is canted. During the assembly the wedge is
                                  hammered in, driving the pieces together, and would result in a
                                  tighter joint. Norm's relies on well cut, matching surfaces.

                                  Also, I'd speculate that the timber frame joint may make assembly
                                  easier. Remember, this would be used on large beams. So the beams
                                  could be hoisted into place, and supported by an upright from below
                                  and hooked together (where the wedge will be eventually driven in).
                                  Then the uprights (which presumably this is being used to bridge
                                  between), can be drawn together (via ropes/pulleys or whatever) and
                                  the joint would be drawn together, sliding along the canted portion of
                                  the joint. Then finally the wedge would be hammered in to hold in place.

                                  I have no timber frame experience, so my description is pure conjecture.

                                  So, I'd guess that Norm's joint might actually be better for your
                                  application, since there'd be more wood available to support the joint
                                  with downward force. I was thinking that one could actually make the
                                  blocks be wedge shaped parallelograms (i.e. a rectangle on one end and
                                  a parallelogram on the other) which would force the 2 beams closer
                                  together during assembly.

                                  I was also thinking that you could wrap the hooked portion of the
                                  joint tightly with cord rather than metal. Just an alternative that
                                  would accomplish the same thing.

                                  Chris

                                  > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                                  > Besides
                                  > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                                  > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                                  > anywhere
                                  > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                                  > where
                                  > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                                  > >





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                                • Siegfried
                                  Ahh, yes, that s it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later episode made
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 13, 2005
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                                    Ahh, yes, that's it. The Gamble house. It was an episode where Norm
                                    visited the Gamble house and saw the joint there. Then he in a later
                                    episode made gazebo/type thing, using that joint to hook long cross
                                    pieces together.

                                    Thanks, that had been bugging me.

                                    Siegfried


                                    On 7/12/05, ewdysar <ewdysar@...> wrote:
                                    > I believe that I have seen examples of the "Norm" joint in the
                                    > Gamble House in Pasadena, a historical Greene and Greene Craftsman
                                    > mansion. The house also contains examples of the scarf joints
                                    > shown. The Norm joint was used in various spots in the interior,
                                    > with exotic woods and master quality detail. The scarf joints were
                                    > in the roof structure along with other timber frame joints, more
                                    > structural than show.
                                    >
                                    > Eric, aka Eirikr
                                    >
                                    > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried
                                    > <SiegfriedFaust@g...> wrote:
                                    > > Ok, so last year my ridge pole busted at Pennsic, and I managed to
                                    > > screw & glue it together to allow it to work ...
                                    > > In particular, I was impressed a while back while watching This Old
                                    > > House reruns, at watching Norm make a 'Interlocking Scarf Joint'
                                    > (or
                                    > > something similarly called). In that it was a joint that
                                    > disassembled
                                    > > easily, and just 'held itself together'. No bolts, no nothing.
                                    > > Really dern impressive and guaranteed to impress people, who
                                    > looking
                                    > > at it think that there is no way it will hold together, but it
                                    > does.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ok, here is my question though. I've done some research, and
                                    > while
                                    > > 'real details' are hard to find, I'm debating between 2 different
                                    > > joints. And I'd like some advice.
                                    > >
                                    > > The first is the 'Norm' joint ... pardon the bad ASCII art (go
                                    > render
                                    > > this in a monospace font), but it looks like this:
                                    > > ___________________________________
                                    > > /
                                    > > ---[]---[]---[]---
                                    > > _______________________/___________
                                    > >
                                    > > In this join, the [] areas hold wood blocks, that are meant to
                                    > slide
                                    > > in easily. No need to be 'tight'. Once all 3 are in, any attempt
                                    > at
                                    > > movement by the joint binds them all up.
                                    > >
                                    > > Second is a Splayed Hooked Wedged Scarf Joint, that I found via
                                    > > searching online at Timber Framing sites ... A decent picture of
                                    > this
                                    > > can be seen here sans it's wedges:
                                    > > http://www.trilliumdell.com/vocabulary/img/scarf_joint.jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > Also here is bad ASCII art as well:
                                    > > _____________________________________
                                    > > __\
                                    > > __..--''
                                    > > __..-[]-''
                                    > > __..--''
                                    > > _____\_______________________________
                                    > >
                                    > > Here, the single hole [] (it's supposed to be tipped ... check that
                                    > > image I sent) ... instead is meant to take 2 wedges to be driven
                                    > > against each other, to push the joint tight and keep it tight.
                                    > >
                                    > > So, now, the questions:
                                    > >
                                    > > A) Any reason any of you can see to do one, versus the other?
                                    > Besides
                                    > > the fact that the bottom one seems to be quite common in timber
                                    > > framing, whereas I can't see any references to the Norm joint
                                    > anywhere
                                    > > ... except the show where he made it in an arbor, and the show
                                    > where
                                    > > he 'discovered it', used in building a house.
                                    > >
                                    > > B) Followup....
                                    > > Thanks,
                                    > > Sorry for the long email,
                                    > > Siegfried
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    _________________________________________________________________________
                                    THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust - http://crossbows.biz/
                                    Barony of Highland Foorde - Baronial Archery Marshal
                                    Kingdom of Atlantia - Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target Archery
                                    http://eliw.com/ - http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
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