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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Dove Tail ponderance

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  • Joseph Hayes
    ... Maybe the dovetail is to prevent racking? Ulrich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
    Message 1 of 13 , May 31 7:10 PM
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      --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
      > You're right, there are a few examples of chests with a single
      > dovetail at each side. They are kind of an odd creature, because
      > the actual joinery is done with nails - it's not clear to me what the
      > dovetail is doing.

      Maybe the dovetail is to prevent racking?

      Ulrich




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    • maf@gleichen.ca
      Maybe it s either just for decoration or it is used as an alignment mark? Cered ... From: Joseph Hayes To:
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 2005
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        Maybe it's either just for decoration or it is used as an alignment mark?

        Cered


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Joseph Hayes" <von_landstuhl@...>
        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Dove Tail ponderance


        >
        > --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
        >> You're right, there are a few examples of chests with a single
        >> dovetail at each side. They are kind of an odd creature, because
        >> the actual joinery is done with nails - it's not clear to me what the
        >> dovetail is doing.
        >
        > Maybe the dovetail is to prevent racking?
        >
        > Ulrich
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
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      • Dan Baker
        The ones I remember all seemed to be very large, very thick chests. It seemed to me at the time that it might be for alignment, to hold everything in place
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 1, 2005
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          The ones I remember all seemed to be very large, very thick chests.
          It seemed to me at the time that it might be for alignment, to hold
          everything in place while it was being nailed. At least as much that
          as for any additional strength. If you are working with big awkward
          pieces, something to hold it in dry fit would be very useful.

          I don't think Bessy was making K clamps in the middle ages. ; )

          -Rhys

          On 5/31/05, Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hmmm, are we including cases where there is a single dovetail in an
          > otherwise butt jointed side? I have seen a few of those, I was
          > thinking they were earlier then 1400s, I'll have to look.
          > You're right, there are a few examples of chests with a single dovetail at
          > each side. They are kind of an odd creature, because the actual joinery is
          > done with nails - it's not clear to me what the dovetail is doing. When I
          > first saw a drawing of this, I thought it was a fake, but have seen evidence
          > of others, so I guess they were real.
          >
        • Thomas Lee Case
          ... I m interested in more information on this style of chest. At one time I had photo copies of pictures of chests which were apparently framed with half
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 5, 2005
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            On Wednesday 01 June 2005 01:35 pm, Dan Baker wrote:
            > The ones I remember all seemed to be very large, very thick chests.
            > It seemed to me at the time that it might be for alignment, to hold
            > everything in place while it was being nailed. At least as much that
            > as for any additional strength. If you are working with big awkward
            > pieces, something to hold it in dry fit would be very useful.
            >
            > I don't think Bessy was making K clamps in the middle ages. ; )
            >
            > -Rhys
            >
            > On 5/31/05, Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
            > > Hmmm, are we including cases where there is a single dovetail in an
            > > otherwise butt jointed side? I have seen a few of those, I was
            > > thinking they were earlier then 1400s, I'll have to look.
            > > You're right, there are a few examples of chests with a single dovetail
            > > at each side. They are kind of an odd creature, because the actual
            > > joinery is done with nails - it's not clear to me what the dovetail is
            > > doing. When I first saw a drawing of this, I thought it was a fake, but
            > > have seen evidence of others, so I guess they were real.


            I'm interested in more information on this style of chest.
            At one time I had photo copies of pictures of chests which were apparently
            framed with half lapped dove tail joints ( in the manner of the half lapped
            dovetail joints used in timber framed building construction), instead of
            mortise and tenon construction. It would seem that I've lost that information
            over the years.
            I would like to locate information about their construction, and provenance.

            On a related note, this site
            http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dvtailtesting/dvtailtestindex.htm
            describes testing that indicates that when glue is not used, that the strength
            of a dovetail joint increases as the angle of the dovetails increases, up to
            about 35 degrees.


            Thomas Lee Case
          • Tim Bray
            ... One or two are shown or described in: Church Chests of the Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries in England, by Philip Mainwaring Johnston, F.R.I.B.A. No ISBN.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 5, 2005
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              I'm interested in more information on this style of chest.
              At one time I had photo copies of pictures of chests which were apparently
              framed with half lapped dove tail joints ( in the manner of the half lapped
              dovetail joints used in timber framed building construction), instead of
              mortise and tenon construction. It would seem that I've lost that information
              over the years.
              I would like to locate information about their construction, and provenance.

              One or two are shown or described in:
              Church Chests of the Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries in England, by Philip Mainwaring Johnston, F.R.I.B.A.
              No ISBN.  Reprint of an article from Archaeological Journal, v. 64, no. 4, 1907.
              Available from Caber Press, 7459 N. Fenwick, Portland OR 97217.
              http://home.teleport.com/~tcl/caber.htm
              Master Magnus got Jack to reprint this, and it is the best $12.95 (plus shipping) you will ever spend.


              On a related note, this site
               http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dvtailtesting/dvtailtestindex.htm
              describes testing that indicates that when glue is not used, that the strength
              of a dovetail joint increases as the angle of the dovetails increases, up to
              about 35 degrees.

              I think we talked about that before... very interesting findings, especially the part about the joint being _stronger_ without glue!

              My conclusion, IIRC, was that this probably went a long way toward explaining the preference for wide dovetail angles in the late MA, because I don't think they relied much on glue.

              Cheers,
              Colin


              Albion Works
              Furniture and Accessories
              For the Medievalist!
            • Tim Bray
              By the way - those 1430s dovetailed carcases I was talking about, on the Belgian retables? They have face-miters, something like the ones shown here:
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 5, 2005
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                By the way - those 1430s dovetailed carcases I was talking about, on the Belgian retables?  They have face-miters, something like the ones shown here:
                http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/boxdovetails/boxdovetailindex.htm
                But only on the front edge.

                Cheers,
                Colin


                Albion Works
                Furniture and Accessories
                For the Medievalist!
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