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Sanding vs planing/scraping, water vs mineral spirits

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  • John LaTorre
    OK, guys and gals. New topic here: I just completed a set of poles for a sunshade and, rather than sand them in preparation for finishing them, used
    Message 1 of 7 , May 25, 2005
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      OK, guys and gals. New topic here:

      I just completed a set of poles for a sunshade and, rather than sand them in
      preparation for finishing them, used exclusively a plane and scraper. They
      were, as you'd expect, glassy smooth.

      But when I painted them (with Flectro Varathane), the finish didn't seem to
      want to go onto the surface as well as it usually does. I ended up thinning
      it with mineral spirits and now all three coats are on and curing, but it
      got me to thinking:

      1. Do the fine scratches caused by sanding help the finish stick to the
      wood? Has anybody else noticed this?

      2. I've used water-based urethane vinishes and found them to be far less
      durable than the mineral-spirit based ones. Has anybody had any experience
      with a water-based finish that they have found to be equal to the
      mineral-spirit based ones, or is my experience pretty much the same as
      everybody else's?

      (As for the inevitable question of why I didn't use paint or linseed oil or
      the like, I knew that the poles were going to be subjected to a lot of abuse
      and wanted the most rugged, maintenance-free finish, and for me, that's
      still Varathane.)

      Baron Johann von Drachenfels (John LaTorre)

      2.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:34 AM
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Digest Number 751
      >
      >
      >
      > There are 7 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Bravo Donato
      > From: "Brian Tychonski" <BrianBroadaxe@...>
      > 2. RE: New to the Group
      > From: "Chuck Phillips" <chuck@...>
      > 3. RE: kungsara bench
      > From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
      > 4. RE: kungsara bench
      > From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
      > 5. Let's talk about hinges
      > From: "sdv1964" <sdv1964@...>
      > 6. RE: kungsara bench
      > From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
      > 7. Re: kungsara bench
      > From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:59:12 -0700
      > From: "Brian Tychonski" <BrianBroadaxe@...>
      > Subject: Bravo Donato
      >
      > I guess my point here is, I have lost respect for the whole
      > documentation process within the SCA. Arts and Sciences
      > competitions are a good idea, they encourage a person to dig
      > deeper to find a more thorough context; but they are not period
      > in themselves. They also do not encourage people to be free
      > thinkers and discover hidden treasures which are NOT hidden in
      > the words of primary documentaion. I save my accomplishments for
      > sharing with people who I think REALLY will enjoy what I have to
      > offer.... a good glass of mead with friends, some excellent
      > music, and good conversation about the roots of where these all
      > came from. I no longer need to worry about proving I know
      > everything to a judge who may, or may not know more than I do. I
      > will leave the A&S competitions to people who feel they have
      > something to prove. (now I will get off of my soapbox and let
      > the attacks come)
      >
      > Donato
      >
      >
      > Well said Donato. I've actually had to pull out documentation to
      > prove to someone who wasn't a judge or even a Laurel that they
      > were wrong when they said that leather wasn't tooled using
      > incised lines in period. He was discussing one of my pieces at a
      > populace choice (no documentation just how much Ooh Ahh can a
      > piece generate.) with a Laurel (now (or soon to be) the Queen of
      > Drachenvald. Go Eufemia) who told him that I had told her that
      > the technique was period and that I had documentation to prove
      > it. He made a snide remark that it wasn't period and that he'd
      > love to see it if I really did have documentation. I walked into
      > the room just as this comment was made and Eufemia asked me if I
      > had my documentation handy. I went to the car and brought it in.
      > After seeing that he was indeed wrong, he just shook his head and
      > said "I wish I had known this fifteen years ago, the Laurel who
      > taught me leatherworking said that modern tooling techniques
      > weren't period so I haven't been using them." Now does everyone
      > understand why I feel all comments about unusual parts of a piece
      > should always be phrased as questions?
      >
      > Someone who got their Laurel 15 yrs ago may or may not
      > necessarily have kept up their research and might not know
      > everything they think they do. Other people have been doing
      > research and new resources have become available. Just think of
      > the internet. How many more references are available now compared
      > to available 20 yrs ago? This newsgroup is an example of
      > resources that weren't available 10 years ago. Now we have access
      > not just to the experts in our kingdom but to experts in all of
      > the kingdoms including sharing of color photos instantly.
      >
      > Just my 2 cents worth
      >
      > Brian Broadaxe
      >
      > [This message contained attachments]
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:23:53 -0700
      > From: "Chuck Phillips" <chuck@...>
      > Subject: RE: New to the Group
      >
      > Funny, I had visions of really big splinters...
      >
      > Charles Joiner
      > Caid
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Siegfried
      > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:11 AM
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New to the Group
      >
      >
      > On 5/24/05, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
      > > How do you manage to carve up the hand that's holding the
      > carving tool?
      >
      > Cause I don't carve ;)
      >
      > Current scars are (You don't count any you can't see anymore, right!?):
      > * Right fingers - Running into table-mounted router
      > * Right arm - Tablesaw kickback
      > * Left knee - Utility knife while cutting leather
      > * Right thigh - Utility knife while cutting leather (yea, yea, you'd a
      > thought I'd learned, it took me twice)
      >
      > Siegfried
      >
      > --
      >
      > __________________________________________________________________
      > _________
      > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      > http://crossbows.biz/
      > Barony of Highland Foorde Baronial Web Minister & Archery
      > Marshal
      > Kingdom of Atlantia Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target
      > Archery
      > http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
      > http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:43:27 -0700
      > From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
      > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
      >
      > Greetings Cered,
      >
      >
      >
      > You might try checking out Master Greydragon photos at
      > http://www.greydragon.org/trips/stockholm/index3.html.
      >
      > He has three photos of the bench that he took at Sweden's Museum
      > of National
      > Antiquities (Historiska Museet) in 2003.
      >
      >
      >
      > You may also wish to look at my version of the bench in the
      > medievalsawdust
      > photo section under Alfric's.
      >
      >
      >
      > Hope this is of some help.
      >
      >
      >
      > Alfric.
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maf@...
      > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:13 PM
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
      >
      >
      >
      > I'm looking for pictures of the Kungsara curch bench it's a 1100
      > norse bench
      > with lots of carving, so far I have been only able to find a rear picture.
      > Anyone know of any other views?
      >
      >
      >
      > Cered
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:49:29 -0700
      > From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
      > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
      >
      > Cered,
      >
      >
      >
      > Yes, the bench is still with us. See my previous posting.
      >
      >
      >
      > Have fun making it if you decide to do it Cered. It's both a hoot and a
      > challenge.
      >
      >
      >
      > Alfric
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maf@...
      > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:40 PM
      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks Ulrich
      >
      > Is this piece still in existance? or like so many others did it get
      > lost/destroyed during a war? I'm thinking of doing this for an A&S piece
      > (principality A&S is next february) and it's been a long time
      > since I did an
      >
      > early period piece.
      >
      > Cered
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Joseph Hayes" <von_landstuhl@...>
      > To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:31 PM
      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
      >
      >
      > >
      > > --- maf@... wrote:
      > >> I'm looking for pictures of the Kungsara curch bench it's a 1100
      > >> norse bench with lots of carving, so far I have been only able to
      > >> find a rear picture. Anyone know of any other views?
      > >
      > > Side view:
      > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench02.jpg
      > >
      > > Description in German:
      > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench03.jpg
      > >
      > > Ulrich
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________
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      >
      >
      > _____
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      >
      > Message: 5
      > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:07:00 -0000
      > From: "sdv1964" <sdv1964@...>
      > Subject: Let's talk about hinges
      >
      > Hello Everyone,
      >
      > I have a box built. It looks pretty good question is what do I do
      > about hinges? I personally am not a fan of the integral wooden
      > hinges. But I get ahead of myself.
      >
      > I am a 15th century reenactor 1470's, English, Gentleman.
      >
      > So I guess the first question is are they still making clamp front
      > chests in the 1470's. Eames seems to think so but they are being
      > surplanted by panel construction. Which am I more likely to have?
      >
      > Also I see a variety of metal hinges in art work from the time period
      > but am curious when I don't see hinges on the tops of the boxes. Are
      > they still using the intergal wooden hinges in 1470's? Are they
      > mounting iron hinges on the inside of the lid? If so why don't I see
      > clinched nails on the outside of the box? I would think using short
      > nails to hold the hinges would not be as secure as clinched ones.
      >
      > That being said where should the knuckle or barrel of the hinge lie?
      > I have seen pictures of it on the very top of the lid. So that the
      > lid can fold all the way over and I have seen it where the barrel is
      > between the lid and the box. But this means the lid can't fold all
      > thway back. Which puts a lot of stress on the hinge as I don't see any
      > boxes with lid keepers.
      >
      > I would appreciate any assistance,
      >
      > Thank You,
      >
      > Steve
      >
      > PS on a lighter note: See all living history people (re enactors)
      > don't know everything or even act like they do. lol
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
      > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
      >
      >
      > --- Ralph <alfric@...> wrote:
      > > You might try checking out Master Greydragon photos at
      > > http://www.greydragon.org/trips/stockholm/index3.html.
      >
      > Hmm. For some reason, that site is blocked by our web filter because
      > of pornography. I'm glad I have the bypass password. ;)
      >
      > Ulrich
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      > Message: 7
      > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
      > Subject: Re: kungsara bench
      >
      >
      > Oops, forgot to credit the source: Möbel Europas 1: Romanik-Gotik, by
      > Franz Windisch-Graetz.
      >
      > --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
      > > Side view:
      > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench02.jpg
      > >
      > > Description in German:
      > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench03.jpg
      > >
      > > Ulrich
      >
      >
      >
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    • James Winkler
      Somehow the paint has got to bond with the surface... so, you either use paints with a good adhesion ability, good penetrating properties and/or ya rough it
      Message 2 of 7 , May 25, 2005
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        Somehow the paint has got to bond with the surface...  so, you either use paints with a good adhesion ability, good penetrating properties and/or ya' rough it up a bit...  too smooth.   One thing ya' didn't mention is what kind of wood you're using.   I made a picnic table out of fir a couple of years ago and finished it with spar varnish.   Every year the changes of temp and humidity cause cracks to occur... followed by subsequent pealing... I'm almost convinced that the resins in the wood are working against me to some degree...
         
        Chas.
         

         
        OK, guys and gals. New topic here:

        I just completed a set of poles for a sunshade and, rather than sand them in
        preparation for finishing them, used exclusively a plane and scraper. They
        were, as you'd expect, glassy smooth.

        But when I painted them (with Flectro Varathane), the finish didn't seem to
        want to go onto the surface as well as it usually does. I ended up thinning
        it with mineral spirits and now all three coats are on and curing, but it
        got me to thinking:

        1. Do the fine scratches caused by sanding help the finish stick to the
        wood? Has anybody else noticed this?
      • Tim Bray
        ... Yes, and yes. It s most noticeable with paint or varnish; oil finish (because it penetrates) works a little better. Shellac works fine, too, because it
        Message 3 of 7 , May 25, 2005
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          1. Do the fine scratches caused by sanding help the finish stick to the
          wood? Has anybody else noticed this?

          Yes, and yes.  It's most noticeable with paint or varnish; oil finish (because it penetrates) works a little better.  Shellac works fine, too, because it sticks to anything.  So one remedy, to preserve that lovely surface, is to use a sealer coat of shellac (a 1 or 2 lb cut) and then varnish over that.  Or just use shellac - it scratches more easily than varnish, but is a lot easier to repair.

          As far as the water-based finishes, I have no personal experience.  What I've read suggests that they should be, if anything, _more_ durable than oil-base; but that's just hearsay.  Have you noticed the WB deteriorating faster than OB, or just not providing as good protection right from the start?  WB might be more susceptible to UV degradation.


          (As for the inevitable question of why I didn't use paint or linseed oil or
          the like, I knew that the poles were going to be subjected to a lot of abuse
          and wanted the most rugged, maintenance-free finish, and for me, that's
          still Varathane.)

          Hm, that's different from my experience. Varathane doesn't hold up to UV at all, and when it goes, it looks terrible.  I've had much better luck with paint, as far as ruggedness and freedom from maintenance.  The toughest clear finish I've yet found is a penetrating epoxy, followed by a UV-resistant clear finish.   The epoxy makes the wood virtually waterproof, hopefully preventing the trapped-moisture condition that causes mold under a finish.  (This is what I did for the new WK traveling thrones.)

          For the topcoat, I recently read about unpigmented paint base (oil-based): it is formulated with anti-mildew and UV-blocking agents, and if you simply don't add pigment, it makes a clear finish.  Somebody did a long-term test on exterior doors (in Texas) and this stuff outperformed spar varnish by a wide margin.  (If your piece won't get much UV exposure, you don't need the topcoat at all.)

          The downsides to this method are:  Penetrating epoxy is nasty stuff, the solvent (mostly lacquer thinner) is irritating and stinky; and the whole process is kind of a PITA.

          Cheers,
          Colin


          Albion Works
          Furniture and Accessories
          For the Medievalist!
        • John LaTorre
          ... Poplar. ... The water-based paint showed more degradation after about a year or so. It wasn t apparent right away. ... Hmm. I thought that epoxy was LESS
          Message 4 of 7 , May 26, 2005
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            Charles wrote:

            > One
            > thing ya' didn't mention is what kind of wood you're using.


            Poplar.
            And Colin wrote:

            > Have you noticed the WB deteriorating
            > faster than OB, or just not providing as good protection right from the
            > start? WB might be more susceptible to UV degradation.

            The water-based paint showed more degradation after about a year or so. It
            wasn't apparent right away.

            > >(As for the inevitable question of why I didn't use paint or
            > linseed oil or
            > >the like, I knew that the poles were going to be subjected to a
            > lot of abuse
            > >and wanted the most rugged, maintenance-free finish, and for me, that's
            > >still Varathane.)
            >
            > Hm, that's different from my experience. Varathane doesn't hold
            > up to UV at
            > all, and when it goes, it looks terrible. I've had much better luck with
            > paint, as far as ruggedness and freedom from maintenance. The toughest
            > clear finish I've yet found is a penetrating epoxy, followed by a
            > UV-resistant clear finish. The epoxy makes the wood virtually
            > waterproof,
            > hopefully preventing the trapped-moisture condition that causes
            > mold under
            > a finish. (This is what I did for the new WK traveling thrones.)

            Hmm. I thought that epoxy was LESS UV-resistant than other stuff. As for
            Varathane, maybe we're talking about interior-finish Varathane (which is
            what most people use for furniture) versus the outdoor "spar varnish"
            Varathane (which is what I use for poles, with pretty good results). This
            stuff isn't the same as the classic "spar varnish" which never dried hard
            ... in fact, the modern urethane varnishes seem to have replaces the classic
            spar varnishes entirely, since they have the flexibility that a flexing spar
            needed to have without the drawback of being soft.
            >
            > For the topcoat, I recently read about unpigmented paint base
            > (oil-based):
            > it is formulated with anti-mildew and UV-blocking agents, and if
            > you simply
            > don't add pigment, it makes a clear finish. Somebody did a
            > long-term test
            > on exterior doors (in Texas) and this stuff outperformed spar
            > varnish by a
            > wide margin. (If your piece won't get much UV exposure, you
            > don't need the
            > topcoat at all.)

            That may be the way to go. Where is this stuff availabe from? Brand name?

            And BTW, I apologize to the list for quoting the whole damn' digest in my
            last post. I'm usually pretty good about that ... must have been the paint
            fumes. (At least I changed the subject line!)
          • Tim Bray
            ... It is, hence the need for the UV-resistant topcoat. Although some formulas of epoxy are UV-resistant; there s a great Website describing a boat-builder s
            Message 5 of 7 , May 27, 2005
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              Hmm. I thought that epoxy was LESS UV-resistant than other stuff.

              It is, hence the need for the UV-resistant topcoat.  Although some formulas of epoxy are UV-resistant; there's a great Website describing a boat-builder's experiment with various different epoxies.
              http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm

              As for
              Varathane, maybe we're talking about interior-finish Varathane (which is
              what most people use for furniture) versus the outdoor "spar varnish"
              Varathane (which is what I use for poles, with pretty good results).

              Oops, my mistake, then.

               This
              stuff isn't the same as the classic "spar varnish" which never dried hard
              ... in fact, the modern urethane varnishes seem to have replaces the classic
              spar varnishes entirely, since they have the flexibility that a flexing spar
              needed to have without the drawback of being soft.

              Somebody else did a test with spar varnish vs. paint-base:
              http://tinyurl.com/79jc9

              Apparently you just go to a paint store and get a can of oil paint tint base, without the tint.  It's essentially an oil-based varnish with mildewcide and UV protectors added; if you leave out the pigment, it dries clear.  I'd get the smallest can they will sell you and do some testing first.  In fact, I'm going to do exactly that this weekend, so if you want to wait a few months, I'll let you know how it goes.

              Cheers,
              Tim


              Albion Works
              Furniture and Accessories
              For the Medievalist!
            • Tim Bray
              Whoops, I just realized the TinyURL address I put into that last message doesn t work properly. The discussion about using tint-base paint as a clear exterior
              Message 6 of 7 , May 27, 2005
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                Whoops, I just realized the TinyURL address I put into that last message doesn't work properly.  The discussion about using tint-base paint as a clear exterior finish is on the Knots forum:
                http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23121.1

                You will probably have to register, log in, etc, and then use the Search box for message 23121. 

                Cheers,
                Tim


                Albion Works
                Furniture and Accessories
                For the Medievalist!
              • Susy-Earthlink
                Probably a bit late on this reply, but the sand paper does leave tooth for the finish to grad hold of. The grain is still open a little allowing the finish
                Message 7 of 7 , May 30, 2005
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                  Probably a bit late on this reply, but the sand paper does leave "tooth" for the finish to grad hold of.  The grain is still open a little allowing the finish to adhere to the wood.  With the "glassy" smooth finish, there was probably nothing for the finish to "grab" onto.  I don't know if the oil would soak into a smoothly finished piece or not.  I'm not that familiar with oil finishes.  I'm guessing you'd make out better though.
                  Scaighagh
                  Catching up on my last 400 emails...

                  John LaTorre wrote:
                  OK, guys and gals. New topic here:

                  I just completed a set of poles for a sunshade and, rather than sand them in
                  preparation for finishing them, used exclusively a plane and scraper. They
                  were, as you'd expect, glassy smooth.

                  But when I painted them (with Flectro Varathane), the finish didn't seem to
                  want to go onto the surface as well as it usually does. I ended up thinning
                  it with mineral spirits and now all three coats are on and curing, but it
                  got me to thinking:

                  1. Do the fine scratches caused by sanding help the finish stick to the
                  wood? Has anybody else noticed this?

                  2. I've used water-based urethane vinishes and found them to be far less
                  durable than the mineral-spirit based ones. Has anybody had any experience
                  with a water-based finish that they have found to be equal to the
                  mineral-spirit based ones, or is my experience pretty much the same as
                  everybody else's?

                  (As for the inevitable question of why I didn't use paint or linseed oil or
                  the like, I knew that the poles were going to be subjected to a lot of abuse
                  and wanted the most rugged, maintenance-free finish, and for me, that's
                  still Varathane.)

                  Baron Johann von Drachenfels (John LaTorre)

                  2.

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:34 AM
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Digest Number 751
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There are 7 messages in this issue.
                  >
                  > Topics in this digest:
                  >
                  >       1. Bravo Donato
                  >            From: "Brian Tychonski" <BrianBroadaxe@...>
                  >       2. RE: New to the Group
                  >            From: "Chuck Phillips" <chuck@...>
                  >       3. RE: kungsara bench
                  >            From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
                  >       4. RE: kungsara bench
                  >            From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
                  >       5. Let's talk about hinges
                  >            From: "sdv1964" <sdv1964@...>
                  >       6. RE: kungsara bench
                  >            From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
                  >       7. Re: kungsara bench
                  >            From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Message: 1
                  >    Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:59:12 -0700
                  >    From: "Brian Tychonski" <BrianBroadaxe@...>
                  > Subject: Bravo Donato
                  >
                  > I guess my point here is, I have lost respect for the whole
                  > documentation process within the SCA.  Arts and Sciences
                  > competitions are a good idea, they encourage a person to dig
                  > deeper to find a more thorough context; but they are not period
                  > in themselves. They also do not encourage people to be free
                  > thinkers and discover hidden treasures which are NOT hidden in
                  > the words of primary documentaion.  I save my accomplishments for
                  > sharing with people who I think REALLY  will enjoy what I have to
                  > offer.... a good glass of mead with friends, some excellent
                  > music, and good conversation about the roots of where these all
                  > came from.  I no longer need to worry about proving I know
                  > everything to a judge who may, or may not know more than I do.  I
                  > will leave the A&S competitions to people who feel they have
                  > something to prove.   (now I will get off of my soapbox and let
                  > the attacks come)
                  >
                  > Donato
                  >
                  >
                  > Well said Donato. I've actually had to pull out documentation to
                  > prove to someone who wasn't a judge or even a Laurel that they
                  > were wrong when they said that leather wasn't tooled using
                  > incised lines in period. He was discussing one of my pieces at a
                  > populace choice (no documentation just how much Ooh Ahh can a
                  > piece generate.) with a Laurel (now (or soon to be) the Queen of
                  > Drachenvald. Go Eufemia) who told him that I had told her that
                  > the technique was period and that I had documentation to prove
                  > it. He made a snide remark that it wasn't period and that he'd
                  > love to see it if I really did have documentation. I walked into
                  > the room just as this comment was made and Eufemia asked me if I
                  > had my documentation handy. I went to the car and brought it in.
                  > After seeing that he was indeed wrong, he just shook his head and
                  > said "I wish I had known this fifteen years ago, the Laurel who
                  > taught me leatherworking said that modern tooling techniques
                  > weren't period so I haven't been using them." Now does everyone
                  > understand why I feel all comments about unusual parts of a piece
                  > should always be phrased as questions?
                  >
                  > Someone who got their Laurel 15 yrs ago may or may not
                  > necessarily have kept up their research and might not know
                  > everything they think they do.  Other people have been doing
                  > research and new resources have become available. Just think of
                  > the internet. How many more references are available now compared
                  > to available 20 yrs ago? This newsgroup is an example of
                  > resources that weren't available 10 years ago. Now we have access
                  > not just to the experts in our kingdom but to experts in all of
                  > the kingdoms including sharing of color photos instantly.
                  >
                  > Just my 2 cents worth
                  >
                  > Brian Broadaxe
                  >
                  > [This message contained attachments]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Message: 2
                  >    Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:23:53 -0700
                  >    From: "Chuck Phillips" <chuck@...>
                  > Subject: RE: New to the Group
                  >
                  > Funny, I had visions of really big splinters...
                  >
                  > Charles Joiner
                  > Caid
                  >   -----Original Message-----
                  >   From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Siegfried
                  >   Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:11 AM
                  >   To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] New to the Group
                  >
                  >
                  >   On 5/24/05, Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                  >   > How do you manage to carve up the hand that's holding the
                  > carving tool?
                  >
                  >   Cause I don't carve ;)
                  >
                  >   Current scars are (You don't count any you can't see anymore, right!?):
                  >   * Right fingers - Running into table-mounted router
                  >   * Right arm - Tablesaw kickback
                  >   * Left knee - Utility knife while cutting leather
                  >   * Right thigh - Utility knife while cutting leather (yea, yea, you'd a
                  >   thought I'd learned, it took me twice)
                  >
                  >   Siegfried
                  >
                  >   --
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________________
                  > _________
                  >   THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust
                  > http://crossbows.biz/
                  >   Barony of Highland Foorde           Baronial Web Minister & Archery
                  > Marshal
                  >   Kingdom of Atlantia          Deputy Kingdom Earl Marshal for Target
                  > Archery
                  >   http://highland-foorde.atlantia.sca.org/
                  > http://archery.atlantia.sca.org/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  > [This message contained attachments]
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                  > ________________________________________________________________________
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                  >
                  > Message: 3
                  >    Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:43:27 -0700
                  >    From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
                  > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
                  >
                  > Greetings Cered,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You might try checking out Master Greydragon photos at
                  > http://www.greydragon.org/trips/stockholm/index3.html.
                  >
                  > He has three photos of the bench that he took at Sweden's Museum
                  > of National
                  > Antiquities (Historiska Museet) in 2003.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You may also wish to look at my version of the bench in the
                  > medievalsawdust
                  > photo section under Alfric's.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hope this is of some help.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Alfric.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   _____
                  >
                  > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maf@...
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:13 PM
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm looking for pictures of the Kungsara curch bench it's a 1100
                  > norse bench
                  > with lots of carving, so far I have been only able to find a rear picture.
                  > Anyone know of any other views?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Cered
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [This message contained attachments]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Message: 4
                  >    Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:49:29 -0700
                  >    From: "Ralph" <alfric@...>
                  > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
                  >
                  > Cered,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, the bench is still with us. See my previous posting.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Have fun making it if you decide to do it Cered. It's both a hoot and a
                  > challenge.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Alfric
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   _____
                  >
                  > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maf@...
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:40 PM
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks Ulrich
                  >
                  > Is this piece still in existance? or like so many others did it get
                  > lost/destroyed during a war? I'm thinking of doing this for an A&S piece
                  > (principality A&S is next february) and it's been a long time
                  > since I did an
                  >
                  > early period piece.
                  >
                  > Cered
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Joseph Hayes" <von_landstuhl@...>
                  > To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:31 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] kungsara bench
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > --- maf@... wrote:
                  > >> I'm looking for pictures of the Kungsara curch bench it's a 1100
                  > >> norse bench with lots of carving, so far I have been only able to
                  > >> find a rear picture. Anyone know of any other views?
                  > >
                  > > Side view:
                  > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench02.jpg
                  > >
                  > > Description in German:
                  > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench03.jpg
                  > >
                  > > Ulrich
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________
                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
                  > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
                  > >
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                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   _____
                  >
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                  > [This message contained attachments]
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                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Message: 5
                  >    Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:07:00 -0000
                  >    From: "sdv1964" <sdv1964@...>
                  > Subject: Let's talk about hinges
                  >
                  > Hello Everyone,
                  >
                  > I have a box built.  It looks pretty good question is what do I do
                  > about hinges?  I personally am not a fan of the integral wooden
                  > hinges. But I get ahead of myself.
                  >
                  > I am a 15th century reenactor 1470's, English, Gentleman.
                  >
                  > So I guess the first question is are they still making clamp front
                  > chests in the 1470's.  Eames seems to think so but they are being
                  > surplanted by panel construction.  Which am I more likely to have?
                  >
                  > Also I see a variety of metal hinges in art work from the time period
                  > but am curious when I don't see hinges on the tops of the boxes.  Are
                  > they still using the intergal wooden hinges in 1470's?  Are they
                  > mounting iron hinges on the inside of the lid? If so why don't I see
                  > clinched nails on the outside of the box?  I would think using short
                  > nails to hold the hinges would not be as secure as clinched ones.
                  >
                  > That being said where should the knuckle or barrel of the hinge lie?
                  > I have seen pictures of it on the very top of the lid.  So that the
                  > lid can fold all the way over and I have seen it where the barrel is
                  > between the lid and the box.  But this means the lid can't fold all
                  > thway back. Which puts a lot of stress on the hinge as I don't see any
                  > boxes with lid keepers.
                  >
                  > I would appreciate any assistance,
                  >
                  > Thank You,
                  >
                  > Steve
                  >
                  > PS on a lighter note:  See all living history people (re enactors)
                  > don't know everything or even act like they do. lol
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  > ________________________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Message: 6
                  >    Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
                  >    From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
                  > Subject: RE: kungsara bench
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Ralph <alfric@...> wrote:
                  > > You might try checking out Master Greydragon photos at
                  > > http://www.greydragon.org/trips/stockholm/index3.html.
                  >
                  > Hmm.  For some reason, that site is blocked by our web filter because
                  > of pornography.  I'm glad I have the bypass password.  ;)
                  >
                  > Ulrich
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  > Message: 7
                  >    Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
                  >    From: Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...>
                  > Subject: Re: kungsara bench
                  >
                  >
                  > Oops, forgot to credit the source:  Möbel Europas 1: Romanik-Gotik, by
                  > Franz Windisch-Graetz.
                  >
                  > --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                  > > Side view:
                  > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench02.jpg
                  > >
                  > > Description in German:
                  > > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/bench03.jpg
                  > >
                  > > Ulrich
                  >
                  >
                  >
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