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Re: [medievalsawdust] Midrealm A&S Proposal

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  • Joseph Hayes
    ... And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of authenticity. UvL __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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      --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
      > I missed a 1st by less than one point
      > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
      > enough.....

      And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of
      authenticity.

      UvL


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    • jrwinkler@msn.com
      Dang it I won t be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate crew? -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Yea. and
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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        Dang it I won't be there.  Armed Guards?  Enough to stand up to my pirate
        crew?

        --
        YIS,

        Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
        Privateer to the Midrealm

          
        Yea… and their buddies too!!!  ;-O
         
        Chas.
      • Dan Baker
        Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;) -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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          Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;)

          --
          YIS,

          Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
          Privateer to the Midrealm

          Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
          ...Take time to dance in the rain...




          >
          >Dang it I won't be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate
          >crew?
          >
          >
          >Yea. and their buddies too!!! ;-O
          >
          >Chas.


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        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
          ... Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...? hmmm,
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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            --- Dan Baker <Capten_Rhys@...> wrote:
            > Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night
            > run. ;)
            >


            Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good
            idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will
            be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...?

            hmmm, where to hide it...?....

            I know, I could keep it safe for you far from those
            nasty pirates....er, privateers! I would be proud
            to accept such an honor and would give such a task
            my full attention and effort.

            You can count on me, oh mighty Laurel muckty-muck
            high potentate.

            =====
            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
            Aude Aliquid Dignum
            ' Dare Something Worthy '

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          • Ted Kocot
            ... That s OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved soapstone
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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              > I missed a 1st by less than one point
              > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
              > enough.....

              That's OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty
              reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved
              soapstone mold was not made using period tools - if he'd have picked the
              hibachi instead of the Coleman stove to put his pot on, that would have
              been authentic.

              But the fact that he was wearing jeans, flannel shirt in his florescent
              lit, gas heated house...

              Lest this go into a total grouse session, the problem I see is that any
              A&S criteria is DOOMED TO SUCK! If you read Douglas Hofstadter's
              "Metamagical Themas" (a sort of sequel to Godel, Escher, Bach) he talks
              about a knobbed box that produces fonts and asks the question, from the 26
              basic letter form, how many knobs would need to be on the box to produce
              every imaginable font? And then eloquently argues that the answer is
              infinity. He goes on to do a lot of really good philosophizing about the
              essence of creativity. (I pulled my copy down off the shelf because
              spring is here and it is, apparently, the time when all good Midrealmers
              start discussing the A&S criteria. The outright moaning and whining comes
              just before Valentines Day.)

              Anyhow, I am pretty much convinced that any A&S criterion is going to be
              that kind of knobbed box. Consider the authenticity section alone. I
              made a box using all hand tools - a frame saw, chisels, planes, scrapers,
              etc. Well, yes, they're tool types that were available in the middle
              ages, but is anything made of modern steel really authentic?

              Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
              reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
              get it with a feather and an xacto knife? (Not to dis calligraphy, but
              it's not a tool heavy art.) Or is using the xacto knife not period enough,
              so you have to make the tools to make the tools? Do we all need to start
              mining our own ore and rousing our own charcoal? Or do those of us doing
              tool heavy arts and sciences just agree to accept lower scores and say bad
              things about wusses who do tool light arts and sciences. (This cuts both
              ways (well, actually it either cuts N^2 or N*ln(N) where N is the number
              of knobs) see above allegory.)

              So what's to do?

              We can knock some of the rough edges off the A&S criteria but basically
              we'll just find more problems.

              We can try to improve the judging pool by adding ourselves to it, or
              educating the ones already there. (Educating ourselves is implied here.)

              We can not worry about it and accept that sometimes you are going to get a
              judge that doesn't know his stuff, or that some times judges are going to
              look at your project, look at the criteria and mutter, "Aw crap!" under
              their breath as they are forced to give you a lower score than they think
              you deserve.

              We can get rid of the criterion altogether and just have judges look over
              your work and then assign it a number between 1 and 30. (Can you say
              "standard deviation of 15"? I'll bet you can. Sure.)

              We can get rid of scores altogether and just have judges look at your work
              and give you comments about it's authenticity, skill, etc. (But some
              people kind of like shooting for scores. And this will screw up the
              pentathlon.)

              We can get rid of judges altogether and just have people wander through
              the hall judging things that catch there fancy. (You’re project may not
              get judged at all. Glitzy things will get high scores while simpler
              things (even if greater in scope) will tend to get low scores. Brewers
              will be required to bring about 20 gallons of their work.)

              Or, the one that I like best, we can get rid of scores, criterion and
              judges and, at a couple of events every year, announce that there is going
              to be a woodworkers gathering (or whatever art or science it is that you
              do) and do an art school kind of critique, preferably with a couple cold
              ones. (This screws up the pentathlon and takes away the game that people
              shooting for those high scores are playing, but I think it would go a long
              way to create a community of scribes, woodworkers, costumers, brewers,
              what have you within the kingdom.)

              BTW – make any of these changes to and expect someone to scream, “Give us
              Barabus!” whenever your name is mentioned, but such is life.

              Avery
            • Tom Rettie
              ... I m Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and Kingdom Arts
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                >But, in my opinion, the A&S Faire does actually still work at some
                >level… but not as any real lathe by on which masterworks can be successfully
                >turned… nor does it work really well for basic entry level stuff or for
                >serious
                >academics of this or that art/science. The activity is a competition that
                >is designed for those people who want some form of competition (why???
                >don't know…) in their Arts and Sciences arena and does seem, for the most
                >part,
                >to work well for, what I consider to be, mid-level folks. (Although some
                >of the criteria do work pretty well for some pretty advanced stuff…
                >particularly
                >in arts that are well developed within the kingdom.)

                I'm Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding
                Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and
                Kingdom Arts and Sciences Festival (KASF).

                Atlantian University works really well. We have it three times a year,
                rotating through various regions so eventually it comes to a barony near
                you. Anyone can teach just about anything they want, which does lead to an
                occasional stinker of a class, but on the whole we get a great variety of
                reasonably well taught classes, and occasionally real gems. The lack of
                veting/bureaucracy around teaching encourages folks to try it out, and the
                bad ones usually don't keep at it.

                At one point we also did "town and gown" at University, where artisans
                would do hands-on demos in addition to the classes. That's pretty much
                fallen out of favor, but a revival gets proposed now and again.

                KASF is a more problematic beast. It is an event for both A&S demos/static
                displays, and competitions. More lately there has been a big push on the
                competitions, and coincidently there's been a big drop in attendance (I'm
                not saying that's cause-and-effect, just observation). I love the live demo
                part, but logistically it's tough to lug everything out to an event where
                you may have no where to set up, or you may get relegated to some
                out-of-the-way boondock where no one sees you. We're working on fixing this
                one, but it's still to be determined how.

                Atlantia has also recently implemented some more formal/regular
                competitions, including Personna Pentathalon and one that rotates through
                time periods. I won't go into why I don't like them, since obviously some
                folks do and that's okay. But in Atlantia at least, I find it's the
                teaching and live demo scenarios where SCA A&S really starts to accomplish
                what I think it should for a tax-exempt "educational" organization.

                Your servant,

                Fin

                ------------------------------------------------
                Tom Rettie tom@...
                http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
              • Tom Rettie
                ... Oh damn, you ve pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies up front for all those I m about to offend, please don t take it personally. In
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                  >Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
                  >reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
                  >get it with a feather and an xacto knife?

                  Oh damn, you've pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies
                  up front for all those I'm about to offend, please don't take it personally.

                  In truth, very very few of us in the SCA (Laurel or otherwise) are masters
                  of any trade or craft, and I daresay that none of us are masters of a
                  medieval craft. That's not a shot at anyone, or to belittle what we do. I
                  think that's just realism.

                  My Elizabethan alter ego would have spent 7 years, six days a week from the
                  age of 14, learning his trade. He would have then spent the rest of his
                  life, six days a week, practicing it. I will never invest that sort of time
                  and energy in chairmaking, and even if I did, I could never recreate all
                  the things he would have needed to know. How much should I pay for
                  materials? Where do I buy my tools, and what's a fair price? Does my
                  livery company allow me to cut a mortise and tenon, or do I have to
                  subcontract that out to a joiner? Is it worth the expense of the candles
                  for me to work into the evening hours?

                  So does that mean we shouldn't try? Of course not. But we should realize
                  the limitations of what we do and accept our boundaries. We can't reproduce
                  history, we can only produce our best interpretation of it, and we will
                  always be lacking. So rather than dwell on the 683 ways someone is not
                  authentic, let's concentrate on the 14 things they got right, and work on
                  making it 15 (and sharing that with other like-minded geeks).

                  And don't be too envious of the calligraphers who "get off easy" because
                  they're not tool-intensive; there's a move on here in Atlantia to start
                  doing real period calligraphy rather than the rather fanciful stuff that
                  has become tradition in the SCA (more legal documents and real period
                  models). Even on well-tread paths, there are folks who will find a way to
                  blaze a new trail and make even us old think-we-know-it-all's follow them.

                  Okay, that's my heresy. If you must burn me for it, please use a nice
                  seasoned hardwood and be sure to get a good draft going so it doesn't smoke
                  up the house.

                  Your obedient servant,

                  Fin

                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Tom Rettie tom@...
                  http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                • jrwinkler@msn.com
                  Hey Fin. Personally, I ain t for burning you at the steak for your hearsy. but rather burnin you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                    Hey Fin…
                     
                    Personally, I ain't for burning you at the steak for your hearsy… but rather burnin' you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the trimmins')!!!!    … again you echo much of my own sentiments.  I don't refer to myself as an 'expert' at anything (I'm even a marginal performer as a slacker…)… but rather a "talented amateur"…    I like your sentiments… and your observations are right on.   The more I begin to understand about the craft of the medieval carpenter or turner… the less I realize I know…
                     
                    Our A&S Faire is an interesting beast with a long line of history and dark tales surrounding it.  If you REALLY wanna' kinda' get a feel for it…  go to:
                     
                     
                    Once there, click on the Minister of Arts and Sciences button (KMOAS) on the left side of the page…  then look for something called "Middle Kindom Arts and Sciences Criteria"…    You'll need to click "On to the Criteria" on the next page after the dire warning about the written criteria having senority over the e-criteria… but then… welcome to the wonderful world of Midrealm A&S Faire stuff…
                     
                    I would encourage you to check out the criteria entitled :Wood construction…   ;-O
                     
                    Granted that's just one venue… but it is kinda' the great granddaddy of em' and there be a fair number of people who play in it…  some more religiously than others….
                     
                    Yer' most obdn't servant -
                    Chas.
                     
                    Oh… HEY AVERY…  I also dig your post… one of the best expository pieces of writing I've seen from ya' for a while…  but then, I'm not on the Middlebridge…
                     
                     
                     
                  • Joseph Hayes
                    Hi all, OK, So I m not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year. Darn! ;) Well, here s your chance to train me! I know what my interpretation of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                      Hi all,

                      OK, So I'm not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year.
                      Darn! ;) Well, here's your chance to train me!

                      I know what my interpretation of the Wood Construction Criteria is, how
                      about all of you giving me your opinion as to what you look for. Maybe
                      we can turn this into an online judges training camp.

                      Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                      response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                      1. Documentation - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                      Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a primary source?
                      Bonus question #2 - Do you count a translated book as a primary
                      source?

                      2. Authenticity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                      Bonus question #1 - Do you allow "reasonable" substitutions (ie,
                      White Oak instead of English Oak or a metal hand plane instead
                      of a wood one) ?

                      3. Scope - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                      categories:
                      Difficulty of material to work
                      Number of techniques used
                      Difficulty of techniques attempted
                      Type of project (this one is spelled out in criteria)
                      Extent gone to ensure authenticity of techniques used

                      4. Skill - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                      categories:
                      Application of techniques
                      Handling of grain
                      How wood is utilized in the entry
                      Finishing
                      Tightness of joints

                      5. Creativity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria, but this one
                      seems more subjective. What does it take to get a score of 4?
                      Bonus question #1 - If the piece doesn't allow for creativity,
                      (ie, that's the way it was always done or it's based on
                      few extant pieces) do you score high or low?

                      BTW, even if you're not from the Midrealm, feel free to answer.

                      Thanks,
                      Ulrich


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                    • Tom Rettie
                      ... A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                        >Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                        >response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                        A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master
                        Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                        version here:

                        http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ferron/sca/as/criteria/woodwork.htm

                        I still have exceptions to it, but it's much better than it was.

                        Fin

                        ------------------------------------------------
                        Tom Rettie tom@...
                        http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                        ... A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo? ===== Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                          > Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a
                          > primary source?

                          A manuscript image is primary,
                          so why not a photo?

                          =====
                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                          ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                        • Joseph Hayes
                          ... I ve heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are secondary since you re dealing with someone else s interpretation. Others have said unless
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                            --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                            > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?

                            I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are
                            secondary since you're dealing with someone else's interpretation.
                            Others have said unless you see it in person, it's secondary (to which
                            they lump in photos).

                            I personally think furniture in art is secondary while good quality
                            photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the original without
                            analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos don't tell you a
                            whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary rather than
                            secondary.

                            Ulrich


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                          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                            ... I wasn t saying that I agreed with the fact that manuscript imaages are primary ( just try to build a siege engine from most manuscripts.... ) just that
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                              --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?
                              >
                              > I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and
                              > paintings are
                              > secondary since you're dealing with someone else's
                              > interpretation.
                              > Others have said unless you see it in person, it's
                              > secondary (to which
                              > they lump in photos).
                              >
                              > I personally think furniture in art is secondary
                              > while good quality
                              > photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the
                              > original without
                              > analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos
                              > don't tell you a
                              > whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary
                              > rather than
                              > secondary.
                              >
                              > Ulrich
                              >
                              I wasn't saying that I agreed with the
                              fact that manuscript imaages are primary
                              ( just try to build a siege engine from
                              most manuscripts.... ) just that that
                              is that way that the system is set up

                              Hey, what do you know, another potential
                              problem with the criteria....

                              =====
                              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                              Aude Aliquid Dignum
                              ' Dare Something Worthy '

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