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Re: [medievalsawdust] Midrealm A&S Proposal

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  • jrwinkler@msn.com
    ... Well. in a word. yep. But let me explain. Your proposal is excellent in many aspects but. when you talk about writing the addendum. to which culture and
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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      >> Am I dreaming? <<
      Well… in a word… yep.  
       
      But let me explain.  Your proposal is excellent in many aspects but… when you talk about writing the addendum… to which culture and which time will you write it?  Which woods in which projects?   Will you address everything from the appropriate selection of wood for a typical project to how to properly apply gilding to panels?
       
      The problem here is that, to provide a comprehensive guide would require a library at least as large as what most of us have… and probably a LOT larger… and then it would require those who judge to actually read and comprehend that knowledge…  …
       
      Ouch!!!  Probably not gonna' happen
       
      Additionally …ya can get into areas where one woodworker say, "I finish with this and do it this way…" … and the second woodworker goes, "YER' DOIN' IT ALL WRONG!!!  Ya' gotta' use THIS for finishing and do it THIS way."  [When in fact, they probably could have done it both way depending on where you stood when you were doin' it.]
       
      ON THE OTHER HAND…  what we're doing on this list and what we do when we teach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to basically do what you're proposing… but its practical as well as academic.  We can discuss our different techniques and explore them… and then speak from experience rather than some theoretic paper.  [… and nothing teaches faster than a chisel through the palm!!!]
       
      Now… the trick is… for those of us who play in the Midrealm… are we willing to take our knowledge and understanding and work as JUDGES in the system to improve it where we can from the inside???  ;-O
       
      Do the criteria need rework???  Probably.  The wood construction criteria, for example, has 'joinery' as an "as applicable" element… almost, it seems to me an afterthought.  Yet, to anybody who actually does woodworking, joinery is the KEY to woodworking and what most of our craft is about…  sigh…
       
      Your most obdn't servant -
      Chas.
       
      Note:
       
      One thing to always remember though about the Midrealm-SCA Faire…  of all the people looking at your entry… YOU are the one who knows… or should know… the most about it.  YOUR job is to communicate that through the documentation…  good docs are used not only to show that what you did is period… but WHY its appropriate to your period and how it fits within the potential range of things that were done during that period.  This means that that you gotta' educate your judges…   Now, if you're doing a common European project that everybody and his brother makes the problem is probably going to be much less difficult than if you're doing Tang Dynansy Chinese… 
       
      … as far as "Judges Opinion"…  that's a tough one.  We all have opinions… the judges get to award or withhold points with theirs.  Unfortunately…  even where there are clear cut guidance for HOW to judge, you will, occasionally, get judges who elect to step outside that guidance.  Actually, MOST judges are pretty good about following the rules…  but not all.
    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
      Greetings Ulrich My problem is with the judges. It s the one part of the process I have no control over. Question...have you beeb a Judge yet?
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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        Greetings Ulrich

        <snip>
        My problem is with the judges. It's the one part of the process I have no
        control over.
        <snip>

        Question...have you beeb a Judge yet? Have you watched a Judge while he
        worked?

        James Cunningham
      • Joseph Hayes
        ... I have judged at informal event-level displays. At regional and kingdom, I never judged when I have something entered. Since I m not entering this year,
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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          --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
          > Question...have you been a Judge yet?

          I have judged at informal event-level displays. At regional and
          kingdom, I never judged when I have something entered. Since I'm not
          entering this year, I plan to judge.

          > Have you watched a Judge while he worked?

          Yup!


          Ulrich


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        • tom@his.com
          ... te ach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to basic ally do what you re proposing. but its practical as well as academic. We
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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            > ON THE OTHER HAND. what we're doing on this list and what we do when we
            te> ach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to
            basic> ally do what you're proposing. but its practical as well as academic. We
            c> an discuss our different techniques and explore them. and then speak from
            e> xperience rather than some theoretic paper. [. and nothing teaches faster
            > than a chisel through the palm!!!]

            I've never been a fan of A&S competitions, and the more I learn about my craft,
            the less I want to judge it in competition, let alone compete myself. Almost
            all the judging criteria I've seen for woodwork reflect post-17th century "fine
            furniture" sensibilities and practices. So what do I do for the poor guy who
            worked like hell to meet the judging criteria, when what I really want to do is
            tell him why the criteria need work? It occurred to me while looking at a
            period chest in Southwark that it would do pretty poorly in an SCA competition
            (grain matching? hell, the wood species didn't match!). By the time I explain
            why spindle profiles _shouldn't_ all be identical, I've probably crushed a
            soul. I'd much rather just talk with him about what he did, why, and offer
            whatever knowedge I can.

            My respects to those who judge and compete. I hope you will likewise have
            tolerance for those of us who choose not to.

            Your servant,

            Fin (OL)
            (Tom R.)


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          • jrwinkler@msn.com
            ... A wonderful perspective. As I ve said for years. the A&S Faire ain t for everybody. and many of the problems you listed in your post are VERY similar to
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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              Tom wrote:

              >> My respects to those who judge and compete. I hope you will
              likewise have
              >> tolerance for those of us who choose not to.
               
              A wonderful perspective. 
               
              As I've said for years… the A&S Faire ain't for everybody… and many of the problems you listed in your post are VERY similar to some of those I have.   This is part of the reason why I've kinda' been pushing "alternate venues".  There isn't, in my opinion, any better way to get feedback on stuff than to have people who DO a particular art to plan an activity around that art…  Specialty activities need specialty focus… unless you believe in the concept of:
               
              A: interchangeable parts
              B: universal adapters
              C: one-size fits all clothing   (pick one)
               
              But designing a venue has its own pitfalls.  In my opinion, you can either do something "in depth" but with a narrow field of focus… or you can "just hit the high spots" and have a broad field of focus.  For example, if we were to organize a venue for evaluating turners… that's doable… we could have in-depth discussion on wood, grain, season, form, history of form, tools, techniques, etc…  and, knowing a lot of this crowd… the conversations could go on for weeks. (It would bore most of the people around us to tears probably… but WE'D be happy!)…   On the other hand… if we were to organize a "general wood working competition"… who among us is competent enough to evaluate the potential spread of objects from all of the cultures that existed over a 1000 year time span?  I sure ain't… and I would dare to say that all of us put together would probably come up dramatically short…   So, the answer has to lie somewhere in the middle… and that's what the Faire attempts to do… with varying degrees of success.
               
              I'm quite willing to assume that "back in the dim dark recesses of time" when the A&S was first conceived, the level of knowledge and skill was such that the Faire probably was a pretty good place to play.  But, as time has passed and we have had lots of fun being lifted on each others shoulders there are many who have taken their research and understanding of their art far beyond what the Faire can reasonably be expected to support.  This is the same problem that ya' run into with research books…  buy a book that's 10 or 20 years old and you're likely to find that the information in it is dated and has some inaccuracies… buy a book that's 100 years old and we'll all have a good laugh at what they believed.  A closer example is that WONDERFUL book… took a lot of things I though I knew about lathes and turning and tossed it right out the shop window… (the ideas… not the book) NOW I have much more KNOWLEDGE and theory upon which to operate and am happily (nay, deliriously) re-thinking my whole concept of medieval woodturning… AND THAT WAS THE EFFECT OF ONLY ONE BOOK!!! 
               
              But, in my opinion, the A&S Faire does actually still work at some level… but not as any real lathe by on which masterworks can be successfully turned… nor does it work really well for basic entry level stuff or for serious academics of this or that art/science.  The activity is a competition that is designed for those people who want some form of competition (why???  don't know…) in their Arts and Sciences arena and does seem, for the most part, to work well for, what I consider to be, mid-level folks.  (Although some of the criteria do work pretty well for some pretty advanced stuff… particularly in arts that are well developed within the kingdom.)
               
              I've supported it for years because, at the social level of the A&S it works for those who want it to work and… on the art level, its given me the opportunity to meet and get to know a number of fellow termites and get to talk shop with em'.  But it isn't for everyone… and I can tell you for a fact that I (as a judge) can get just as frustrated trying to live up to the expectations of entrants and the entrants probably get when they find out I CAN'T live up to their expectations… 
               
              Your most obdn't servant -
              Chas.
               
               
               
            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
              I missed a ... I missed a 1st by less than one point cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative enough..... but I do agree that something needs to be changed and
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                I missed a
                > first place by less than a point because one judge
                > thought I didn't
                > give him enough info on my hinges.
                >

                I missed a 1st by less than one point
                'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                enough.....


                but I do agree that something needs to
                be changed and not just with woodworking.
                It might be a good idea to add a short 'What
                to look for' type paragraph to every catagory.


                ... and consider changing how reproductions
                are judged.

                =====
                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                ' Dare Something Worthy '

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              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                ... I ve judged a coupl of things in a couple various catagories. I ve watched a judge not read my doc s and then knock me for not having enough
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                  > Question...have you beeb a Judge yet? Have you
                  > watched a Judge while he
                  > worked?
                  >
                  > James Cunningham
                  >
                  >
                  I've judged a coupl of things in
                  a couple various catagories.

                  I've watched a judge not read my
                  doc's and then knock me for not
                  having enough documentation....


                  =====
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                • Joseph Hayes
                  ... And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of authenticity. UvL __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                    --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                    > I missed a 1st by less than one point
                    > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                    > enough.....

                    And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of
                    authenticity.

                    UvL


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                  • jrwinkler@msn.com
                    Dang it I won t be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate crew? -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Yea. and
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                      Dang it I won't be there.  Armed Guards?  Enough to stand up to my pirate
                      crew?

                      --
                      YIS,

                      Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                      Privateer to the Midrealm

                        
                      Yea… and their buddies too!!!  ;-O
                       
                      Chas.
                    • Dan Baker
                      Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;) -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                        Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;)

                        --
                        YIS,

                        Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                        Privateer to the Midrealm

                        Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                        ...Take time to dance in the rain...




                        >
                        >Dang it I won't be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate
                        >crew?
                        >
                        >
                        >Yea. and their buddies too!!! ;-O
                        >
                        >Chas.


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                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                        ... Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...? hmmm,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                          --- Dan Baker <Capten_Rhys@...> wrote:
                          > Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night
                          > run. ;)
                          >


                          Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good
                          idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will
                          be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...?

                          hmmm, where to hide it...?....

                          I know, I could keep it safe for you far from those
                          nasty pirates....er, privateers! I would be proud
                          to accept such an honor and would give such a task
                          my full attention and effort.

                          You can count on me, oh mighty Laurel muckty-muck
                          high potentate.

                          =====
                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                          ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                        • Ted Kocot
                          ... That s OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved soapstone
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                            > I missed a 1st by less than one point
                            > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                            > enough.....

                            That's OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty
                            reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved
                            soapstone mold was not made using period tools - if he'd have picked the
                            hibachi instead of the Coleman stove to put his pot on, that would have
                            been authentic.

                            But the fact that he was wearing jeans, flannel shirt in his florescent
                            lit, gas heated house...

                            Lest this go into a total grouse session, the problem I see is that any
                            A&S criteria is DOOMED TO SUCK! If you read Douglas Hofstadter's
                            "Metamagical Themas" (a sort of sequel to Godel, Escher, Bach) he talks
                            about a knobbed box that produces fonts and asks the question, from the 26
                            basic letter form, how many knobs would need to be on the box to produce
                            every imaginable font? And then eloquently argues that the answer is
                            infinity. He goes on to do a lot of really good philosophizing about the
                            essence of creativity. (I pulled my copy down off the shelf because
                            spring is here and it is, apparently, the time when all good Midrealmers
                            start discussing the A&S criteria. The outright moaning and whining comes
                            just before Valentines Day.)

                            Anyhow, I am pretty much convinced that any A&S criterion is going to be
                            that kind of knobbed box. Consider the authenticity section alone. I
                            made a box using all hand tools - a frame saw, chisels, planes, scrapers,
                            etc. Well, yes, they're tool types that were available in the middle
                            ages, but is anything made of modern steel really authentic?

                            Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
                            reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
                            get it with a feather and an xacto knife? (Not to dis calligraphy, but
                            it's not a tool heavy art.) Or is using the xacto knife not period enough,
                            so you have to make the tools to make the tools? Do we all need to start
                            mining our own ore and rousing our own charcoal? Or do those of us doing
                            tool heavy arts and sciences just agree to accept lower scores and say bad
                            things about wusses who do tool light arts and sciences. (This cuts both
                            ways (well, actually it either cuts N^2 or N*ln(N) where N is the number
                            of knobs) see above allegory.)

                            So what's to do?

                            We can knock some of the rough edges off the A&S criteria but basically
                            we'll just find more problems.

                            We can try to improve the judging pool by adding ourselves to it, or
                            educating the ones already there. (Educating ourselves is implied here.)

                            We can not worry about it and accept that sometimes you are going to get a
                            judge that doesn't know his stuff, or that some times judges are going to
                            look at your project, look at the criteria and mutter, "Aw crap!" under
                            their breath as they are forced to give you a lower score than they think
                            you deserve.

                            We can get rid of the criterion altogether and just have judges look over
                            your work and then assign it a number between 1 and 30. (Can you say
                            "standard deviation of 15"? I'll bet you can. Sure.)

                            We can get rid of scores altogether and just have judges look at your work
                            and give you comments about it's authenticity, skill, etc. (But some
                            people kind of like shooting for scores. And this will screw up the
                            pentathlon.)

                            We can get rid of judges altogether and just have people wander through
                            the hall judging things that catch there fancy. (You’re project may not
                            get judged at all. Glitzy things will get high scores while simpler
                            things (even if greater in scope) will tend to get low scores. Brewers
                            will be required to bring about 20 gallons of their work.)

                            Or, the one that I like best, we can get rid of scores, criterion and
                            judges and, at a couple of events every year, announce that there is going
                            to be a woodworkers gathering (or whatever art or science it is that you
                            do) and do an art school kind of critique, preferably with a couple cold
                            ones. (This screws up the pentathlon and takes away the game that people
                            shooting for those high scores are playing, but I think it would go a long
                            way to create a community of scribes, woodworkers, costumers, brewers,
                            what have you within the kingdom.)

                            BTW – make any of these changes to and expect someone to scream, “Give us
                            Barabus!” whenever your name is mentioned, but such is life.

                            Avery
                          • Tom Rettie
                            ... I m Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and Kingdom Arts
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                              >But, in my opinion, the A&S Faire does actually still work at some
                              >level… but not as any real lathe by on which masterworks can be successfully
                              >turned… nor does it work really well for basic entry level stuff or for
                              >serious
                              >academics of this or that art/science. The activity is a competition that
                              >is designed for those people who want some form of competition (why???
                              >don't know…) in their Arts and Sciences arena and does seem, for the most
                              >part,
                              >to work well for, what I consider to be, mid-level folks. (Although some
                              >of the criteria do work pretty well for some pretty advanced stuff…
                              >particularly
                              >in arts that are well developed within the kingdom.)

                              I'm Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding
                              Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and
                              Kingdom Arts and Sciences Festival (KASF).

                              Atlantian University works really well. We have it three times a year,
                              rotating through various regions so eventually it comes to a barony near
                              you. Anyone can teach just about anything they want, which does lead to an
                              occasional stinker of a class, but on the whole we get a great variety of
                              reasonably well taught classes, and occasionally real gems. The lack of
                              veting/bureaucracy around teaching encourages folks to try it out, and the
                              bad ones usually don't keep at it.

                              At one point we also did "town and gown" at University, where artisans
                              would do hands-on demos in addition to the classes. That's pretty much
                              fallen out of favor, but a revival gets proposed now and again.

                              KASF is a more problematic beast. It is an event for both A&S demos/static
                              displays, and competitions. More lately there has been a big push on the
                              competitions, and coincidently there's been a big drop in attendance (I'm
                              not saying that's cause-and-effect, just observation). I love the live demo
                              part, but logistically it's tough to lug everything out to an event where
                              you may have no where to set up, or you may get relegated to some
                              out-of-the-way boondock where no one sees you. We're working on fixing this
                              one, but it's still to be determined how.

                              Atlantia has also recently implemented some more formal/regular
                              competitions, including Personna Pentathalon and one that rotates through
                              time periods. I won't go into why I don't like them, since obviously some
                              folks do and that's okay. But in Atlantia at least, I find it's the
                              teaching and live demo scenarios where SCA A&S really starts to accomplish
                              what I think it should for a tax-exempt "educational" organization.

                              Your servant,

                              Fin

                              ------------------------------------------------
                              Tom Rettie tom@...
                              http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                            • Tom Rettie
                              ... Oh damn, you ve pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies up front for all those I m about to offend, please don t take it personally. In
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                                >Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
                                >reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
                                >get it with a feather and an xacto knife?

                                Oh damn, you've pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies
                                up front for all those I'm about to offend, please don't take it personally.

                                In truth, very very few of us in the SCA (Laurel or otherwise) are masters
                                of any trade or craft, and I daresay that none of us are masters of a
                                medieval craft. That's not a shot at anyone, or to belittle what we do. I
                                think that's just realism.

                                My Elizabethan alter ego would have spent 7 years, six days a week from the
                                age of 14, learning his trade. He would have then spent the rest of his
                                life, six days a week, practicing it. I will never invest that sort of time
                                and energy in chairmaking, and even if I did, I could never recreate all
                                the things he would have needed to know. How much should I pay for
                                materials? Where do I buy my tools, and what's a fair price? Does my
                                livery company allow me to cut a mortise and tenon, or do I have to
                                subcontract that out to a joiner? Is it worth the expense of the candles
                                for me to work into the evening hours?

                                So does that mean we shouldn't try? Of course not. But we should realize
                                the limitations of what we do and accept our boundaries. We can't reproduce
                                history, we can only produce our best interpretation of it, and we will
                                always be lacking. So rather than dwell on the 683 ways someone is not
                                authentic, let's concentrate on the 14 things they got right, and work on
                                making it 15 (and sharing that with other like-minded geeks).

                                And don't be too envious of the calligraphers who "get off easy" because
                                they're not tool-intensive; there's a move on here in Atlantia to start
                                doing real period calligraphy rather than the rather fanciful stuff that
                                has become tradition in the SCA (more legal documents and real period
                                models). Even on well-tread paths, there are folks who will find a way to
                                blaze a new trail and make even us old think-we-know-it-all's follow them.

                                Okay, that's my heresy. If you must burn me for it, please use a nice
                                seasoned hardwood and be sure to get a good draft going so it doesn't smoke
                                up the house.

                                Your obedient servant,

                                Fin

                                ------------------------------------------------
                                Tom Rettie tom@...
                                http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                              • jrwinkler@msn.com
                                Hey Fin. Personally, I ain t for burning you at the steak for your hearsy. but rather burnin you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
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                                  Hey Fin…
                                   
                                  Personally, I ain't for burning you at the steak for your hearsy… but rather burnin' you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the trimmins')!!!!    … again you echo much of my own sentiments.  I don't refer to myself as an 'expert' at anything (I'm even a marginal performer as a slacker…)… but rather a "talented amateur"…    I like your sentiments… and your observations are right on.   The more I begin to understand about the craft of the medieval carpenter or turner… the less I realize I know…
                                   
                                  Our A&S Faire is an interesting beast with a long line of history and dark tales surrounding it.  If you REALLY wanna' kinda' get a feel for it…  go to:
                                   
                                   
                                  Once there, click on the Minister of Arts and Sciences button (KMOAS) on the left side of the page…  then look for something called "Middle Kindom Arts and Sciences Criteria"…    You'll need to click "On to the Criteria" on the next page after the dire warning about the written criteria having senority over the e-criteria… but then… welcome to the wonderful world of Midrealm A&S Faire stuff…
                                   
                                  I would encourage you to check out the criteria entitled :Wood construction…   ;-O
                                   
                                  Granted that's just one venue… but it is kinda' the great granddaddy of em' and there be a fair number of people who play in it…  some more religiously than others….
                                   
                                  Yer' most obdn't servant -
                                  Chas.
                                   
                                  Oh… HEY AVERY…  I also dig your post… one of the best expository pieces of writing I've seen from ya' for a while…  but then, I'm not on the Middlebridge…
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                • Joseph Hayes
                                  Hi all, OK, So I m not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year. Darn! ;) Well, here s your chance to train me! I know what my interpretation of
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                                    Hi all,

                                    OK, So I'm not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year.
                                    Darn! ;) Well, here's your chance to train me!

                                    I know what my interpretation of the Wood Construction Criteria is, how
                                    about all of you giving me your opinion as to what you look for. Maybe
                                    we can turn this into an online judges training camp.

                                    Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                                    response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                                    1. Documentation - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                                    Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a primary source?
                                    Bonus question #2 - Do you count a translated book as a primary
                                    source?

                                    2. Authenticity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                                    Bonus question #1 - Do you allow "reasonable" substitutions (ie,
                                    White Oak instead of English Oak or a metal hand plane instead
                                    of a wood one) ?

                                    3. Scope - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                                    categories:
                                    Difficulty of material to work
                                    Number of techniques used
                                    Difficulty of techniques attempted
                                    Type of project (this one is spelled out in criteria)
                                    Extent gone to ensure authenticity of techniques used

                                    4. Skill - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                                    categories:
                                    Application of techniques
                                    Handling of grain
                                    How wood is utilized in the entry
                                    Finishing
                                    Tightness of joints

                                    5. Creativity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria, but this one
                                    seems more subjective. What does it take to get a score of 4?
                                    Bonus question #1 - If the piece doesn't allow for creativity,
                                    (ie, that's the way it was always done or it's based on
                                    few extant pieces) do you score high or low?

                                    BTW, even if you're not from the Midrealm, feel free to answer.

                                    Thanks,
                                    Ulrich


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                                  • Tom Rettie
                                    ... A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                                      >Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                                      >response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                                      A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master
                                      Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                                      version here:

                                      http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ferron/sca/as/criteria/woodwork.htm

                                      I still have exceptions to it, but it's much better than it was.

                                      Fin

                                      ------------------------------------------------
                                      Tom Rettie tom@...
                                      http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                                    • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                      ... A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo? ===== Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                                        > Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a
                                        > primary source?

                                        A manuscript image is primary,
                                        so why not a photo?

                                        =====
                                        Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                        Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                        ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                      • Joseph Hayes
                                        ... I ve heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are secondary since you re dealing with someone else s interpretation. Others have said unless
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                                          --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                                          > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?

                                          I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are
                                          secondary since you're dealing with someone else's interpretation.
                                          Others have said unless you see it in person, it's secondary (to which
                                          they lump in photos).

                                          I personally think furniture in art is secondary while good quality
                                          photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the original without
                                          analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos don't tell you a
                                          whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary rather than
                                          secondary.

                                          Ulrich


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                                        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                          ... I wasn t saying that I agreed with the fact that manuscript imaages are primary ( just try to build a siege engine from most manuscripts.... ) just that
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
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                                            --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?
                                            >
                                            > I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and
                                            > paintings are
                                            > secondary since you're dealing with someone else's
                                            > interpretation.
                                            > Others have said unless you see it in person, it's
                                            > secondary (to which
                                            > they lump in photos).
                                            >
                                            > I personally think furniture in art is secondary
                                            > while good quality
                                            > photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the
                                            > original without
                                            > analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos
                                            > don't tell you a
                                            > whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary
                                            > rather than
                                            > secondary.
                                            >
                                            > Ulrich
                                            >
                                            I wasn't saying that I agreed with the
                                            fact that manuscript imaages are primary
                                            ( just try to build a siege engine from
                                            most manuscripts.... ) just that that
                                            is that way that the system is set up

                                            Hey, what do you know, another potential
                                            problem with the criteria....

                                            =====
                                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

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