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Midrealm A&S Proposal

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  • Joseph Hayes
    Hi all, An idea has been brewing in my head for a while and I d like to get some feedback as to it s do-ability. I hate the A&S Competition. And I say
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
      Hi all,

      An idea has been brewing in my head for a while and I'd like to get
      some feedback as to it's do-ability.

      I hate the A&S Competition. And I say Competition and not Faire
      because as Master Charles explains it, "it's a competition against the
      criteria." Now, my problem isn't with the criteria, because that's
      pretty much cut and dry. If I use pine when my sources dictate oak, I
      deserve to be dinged some points. My problem is with the judges. It's
      the one part of the process I have no control over. Last time I
      entered Kingdom A&S (in the wood construction category), I missed a
      first place by less than a point because one judge thought I didn't
      give him enough info on my hinges.

      Since I don't think the kingdom is going to start testing and
      warranting judges anytime soon, I had an idea. How do you think it
      would be received if we created an addendum to the criteria that
      explained to judges how to evaluate a project. For example, we could
      explain:

      - how to handle grain
      - authentic and documentable finishing techniques
      - how to judge tightness of joints
      - and so on

      In my perfect little rose-colored world, an informal guild of Midrealm
      woodworkers would use this as a guide when judging and conversely, the
      artisans would know exactly the standards to which they'll be held.

      Am I dreaming?

      Ulrich


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    • jrwinkler@msn.com
      ... Well. in a word. yep. But let me explain. Your proposal is excellent in many aspects but. when you talk about writing the addendum. to which culture and
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003

        >> Am I dreaming? <<
        Well… in a word… yep.  
         
        But let me explain.  Your proposal is excellent in many aspects but… when you talk about writing the addendum… to which culture and which time will you write it?  Which woods in which projects?   Will you address everything from the appropriate selection of wood for a typical project to how to properly apply gilding to panels?
         
        The problem here is that, to provide a comprehensive guide would require a library at least as large as what most of us have… and probably a LOT larger… and then it would require those who judge to actually read and comprehend that knowledge…  …
         
        Ouch!!!  Probably not gonna' happen
         
        Additionally …ya can get into areas where one woodworker say, "I finish with this and do it this way…" … and the second woodworker goes, "YER' DOIN' IT ALL WRONG!!!  Ya' gotta' use THIS for finishing and do it THIS way."  [When in fact, they probably could have done it both way depending on where you stood when you were doin' it.]
         
        ON THE OTHER HAND…  what we're doing on this list and what we do when we teach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to basically do what you're proposing… but its practical as well as academic.  We can discuss our different techniques and explore them… and then speak from experience rather than some theoretic paper.  [… and nothing teaches faster than a chisel through the palm!!!]
         
        Now… the trick is… for those of us who play in the Midrealm… are we willing to take our knowledge and understanding and work as JUDGES in the system to improve it where we can from the inside???  ;-O
         
        Do the criteria need rework???  Probably.  The wood construction criteria, for example, has 'joinery' as an "as applicable" element… almost, it seems to me an afterthought.  Yet, to anybody who actually does woodworking, joinery is the KEY to woodworking and what most of our craft is about…  sigh…
         
        Your most obdn't servant -
        Chas.
         
        Note:
         
        One thing to always remember though about the Midrealm-SCA Faire…  of all the people looking at your entry… YOU are the one who knows… or should know… the most about it.  YOUR job is to communicate that through the documentation…  good docs are used not only to show that what you did is period… but WHY its appropriate to your period and how it fits within the potential range of things that were done during that period.  This means that that you gotta' educate your judges…   Now, if you're doing a common European project that everybody and his brother makes the problem is probably going to be much less difficult than if you're doing Tang Dynansy Chinese… 
         
        … as far as "Judges Opinion"…  that's a tough one.  We all have opinions… the judges get to award or withhold points with theirs.  Unfortunately…  even where there are clear cut guidance for HOW to judge, you will, occasionally, get judges who elect to step outside that guidance.  Actually, MOST judges are pretty good about following the rules…  but not all.
      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
        Greetings Ulrich My problem is with the judges. It s the one part of the process I have no control over. Question...have you beeb a Judge yet?
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
          Greetings Ulrich

          <snip>
          My problem is with the judges. It's the one part of the process I have no
          control over.
          <snip>

          Question...have you beeb a Judge yet? Have you watched a Judge while he
          worked?

          James Cunningham
        • Joseph Hayes
          ... I have judged at informal event-level displays. At regional and kingdom, I never judged when I have something entered. Since I m not entering this year,
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
            --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
            > Question...have you been a Judge yet?

            I have judged at informal event-level displays. At regional and
            kingdom, I never judged when I have something entered. Since I'm not
            entering this year, I plan to judge.

            > Have you watched a Judge while he worked?

            Yup!


            Ulrich


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          • tom@his.com
            ... te ach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to basic ally do what you re proposing. but its practical as well as academic. We
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
              > ON THE OTHER HAND. what we're doing on this list and what we do when we
              te> ach classes, encourage others to try our art, etc., etc., etc., is to
              basic> ally do what you're proposing. but its practical as well as academic. We
              c> an discuss our different techniques and explore them. and then speak from
              e> xperience rather than some theoretic paper. [. and nothing teaches faster
              > than a chisel through the palm!!!]

              I've never been a fan of A&S competitions, and the more I learn about my craft,
              the less I want to judge it in competition, let alone compete myself. Almost
              all the judging criteria I've seen for woodwork reflect post-17th century "fine
              furniture" sensibilities and practices. So what do I do for the poor guy who
              worked like hell to meet the judging criteria, when what I really want to do is
              tell him why the criteria need work? It occurred to me while looking at a
              period chest in Southwark that it would do pretty poorly in an SCA competition
              (grain matching? hell, the wood species didn't match!). By the time I explain
              why spindle profiles _shouldn't_ all be identical, I've probably crushed a
              soul. I'd much rather just talk with him about what he did, why, and offer
              whatever knowedge I can.

              My respects to those who judge and compete. I hope you will likewise have
              tolerance for those of us who choose not to.

              Your servant,

              Fin (OL)
              (Tom R.)


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            • jrwinkler@msn.com
              ... A wonderful perspective. As I ve said for years. the A&S Faire ain t for everybody. and many of the problems you listed in your post are VERY similar to
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                Tom wrote:

                >> My respects to those who judge and compete. I hope you will
                likewise have
                >> tolerance for those of us who choose not to.
                 
                A wonderful perspective. 
                 
                As I've said for years… the A&S Faire ain't for everybody… and many of the problems you listed in your post are VERY similar to some of those I have.   This is part of the reason why I've kinda' been pushing "alternate venues".  There isn't, in my opinion, any better way to get feedback on stuff than to have people who DO a particular art to plan an activity around that art…  Specialty activities need specialty focus… unless you believe in the concept of:
                 
                A: interchangeable parts
                B: universal adapters
                C: one-size fits all clothing   (pick one)
                 
                But designing a venue has its own pitfalls.  In my opinion, you can either do something "in depth" but with a narrow field of focus… or you can "just hit the high spots" and have a broad field of focus.  For example, if we were to organize a venue for evaluating turners… that's doable… we could have in-depth discussion on wood, grain, season, form, history of form, tools, techniques, etc…  and, knowing a lot of this crowd… the conversations could go on for weeks. (It would bore most of the people around us to tears probably… but WE'D be happy!)…   On the other hand… if we were to organize a "general wood working competition"… who among us is competent enough to evaluate the potential spread of objects from all of the cultures that existed over a 1000 year time span?  I sure ain't… and I would dare to say that all of us put together would probably come up dramatically short…   So, the answer has to lie somewhere in the middle… and that's what the Faire attempts to do… with varying degrees of success.
                 
                I'm quite willing to assume that "back in the dim dark recesses of time" when the A&S was first conceived, the level of knowledge and skill was such that the Faire probably was a pretty good place to play.  But, as time has passed and we have had lots of fun being lifted on each others shoulders there are many who have taken their research and understanding of their art far beyond what the Faire can reasonably be expected to support.  This is the same problem that ya' run into with research books…  buy a book that's 10 or 20 years old and you're likely to find that the information in it is dated and has some inaccuracies… buy a book that's 100 years old and we'll all have a good laugh at what they believed.  A closer example is that WONDERFUL book… took a lot of things I though I knew about lathes and turning and tossed it right out the shop window… (the ideas… not the book) NOW I have much more KNOWLEDGE and theory upon which to operate and am happily (nay, deliriously) re-thinking my whole concept of medieval woodturning… AND THAT WAS THE EFFECT OF ONLY ONE BOOK!!! 
                 
                But, in my opinion, the A&S Faire does actually still work at some level… but not as any real lathe by on which masterworks can be successfully turned… nor does it work really well for basic entry level stuff or for serious academics of this or that art/science.  The activity is a competition that is designed for those people who want some form of competition (why???  don't know…) in their Arts and Sciences arena and does seem, for the most part, to work well for, what I consider to be, mid-level folks.  (Although some of the criteria do work pretty well for some pretty advanced stuff… particularly in arts that are well developed within the kingdom.)
                 
                I've supported it for years because, at the social level of the A&S it works for those who want it to work and… on the art level, its given me the opportunity to meet and get to know a number of fellow termites and get to talk shop with em'.  But it isn't for everyone… and I can tell you for a fact that I (as a judge) can get just as frustrated trying to live up to the expectations of entrants and the entrants probably get when they find out I CAN'T live up to their expectations… 
                 
                Your most obdn't servant -
                Chas.
                 
                 
                 
              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                I missed a ... I missed a 1st by less than one point cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative enough..... but I do agree that something needs to be changed and
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                  I missed a
                  > first place by less than a point because one judge
                  > thought I didn't
                  > give him enough info on my hinges.
                  >

                  I missed a 1st by less than one point
                  'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                  enough.....


                  but I do agree that something needs to
                  be changed and not just with woodworking.
                  It might be a good idea to add a short 'What
                  to look for' type paragraph to every catagory.


                  ... and consider changing how reproductions
                  are judged.

                  =====
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  ... I ve judged a coupl of things in a couple various catagories. I ve watched a judge not read my doc s and then knock me for not having enough
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                    > Question...have you beeb a Judge yet? Have you
                    > watched a Judge while he
                    > worked?
                    >
                    > James Cunningham
                    >
                    >
                    I've judged a coupl of things in
                    a couple various catagories.

                    I've watched a judge not read my
                    doc's and then knock me for not
                    having enough documentation....


                    =====
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                  • Joseph Hayes
                    ... And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of authenticity. UvL __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                      --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                      > I missed a 1st by less than one point
                      > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                      > enough.....

                      And if you got too creative, you would have been dinged for lack of
                      authenticity.

                      UvL


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                    • jrwinkler@msn.com
                      Dang it I won t be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate crew? -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Yea. and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                        Dang it I won't be there.  Armed Guards?  Enough to stand up to my pirate
                        crew?

                        --
                        YIS,

                        Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                        Privateer to the Midrealm

                          
                        Yea… and their buddies too!!!  ;-O
                         
                        Chas.
                      • Dan Baker
                        Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;) -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                          Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night run. ;)

                          --
                          YIS,

                          Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                          Privateer to the Midrealm

                          Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                          ...Take time to dance in the rain...




                          >
                          >Dang it I won't be there. Armed Guards? Enough to stand up to my pirate
                          >crew?
                          >
                          >
                          >Yea. and their buddies too!!! ;-O
                          >
                          >Chas.


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                        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                          ... Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...? hmmm,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                            --- Dan Baker <Capten_Rhys@...> wrote:
                            > Hmm, time to bring out the black sails for a night
                            > run. ;)
                            >


                            Gosh Charles, it sounds like it might be a good
                            idea to hide that book somewhere that no-one will
                            be able to find it. Now where can we hide it...?

                            hmmm, where to hide it...?....

                            I know, I could keep it safe for you far from those
                            nasty pirates....er, privateers! I would be proud
                            to accept such an honor and would give such a task
                            my full attention and effort.

                            You can count on me, oh mighty Laurel muckty-muck
                            high potentate.

                            =====
                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                          • Ted Kocot
                            ... That s OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved soapstone
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                              > I missed a 1st by less than one point
                              > 'cause my REPRODUCTION was not creative
                              > enough.....

                              That's OK Conal, someone once dinged your laurel a point because his nifty
                              reproduction of a period pewter button, done in a nifty hand carved
                              soapstone mold was not made using period tools - if he'd have picked the
                              hibachi instead of the Coleman stove to put his pot on, that would have
                              been authentic.

                              But the fact that he was wearing jeans, flannel shirt in his florescent
                              lit, gas heated house...

                              Lest this go into a total grouse session, the problem I see is that any
                              A&S criteria is DOOMED TO SUCK! If you read Douglas Hofstadter's
                              "Metamagical Themas" (a sort of sequel to Godel, Escher, Bach) he talks
                              about a knobbed box that produces fonts and asks the question, from the 26
                              basic letter form, how many knobs would need to be on the box to produce
                              every imaginable font? And then eloquently argues that the answer is
                              infinity. He goes on to do a lot of really good philosophizing about the
                              essence of creativity. (I pulled my copy down off the shelf because
                              spring is here and it is, apparently, the time when all good Midrealmers
                              start discussing the A&S criteria. The outright moaning and whining comes
                              just before Valentines Day.)

                              Anyhow, I am pretty much convinced that any A&S criterion is going to be
                              that kind of knobbed box. Consider the authenticity section alone. I
                              made a box using all hand tools - a frame saw, chisels, planes, scrapers,
                              etc. Well, yes, they're tool types that were available in the middle
                              ages, but is anything made of modern steel really authentic?

                              Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
                              reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
                              get it with a feather and an xacto knife? (Not to dis calligraphy, but
                              it's not a tool heavy art.) Or is using the xacto knife not period enough,
                              so you have to make the tools to make the tools? Do we all need to start
                              mining our own ore and rousing our own charcoal? Or do those of us doing
                              tool heavy arts and sciences just agree to accept lower scores and say bad
                              things about wusses who do tool light arts and sciences. (This cuts both
                              ways (well, actually it either cuts N^2 or N*ln(N) where N is the number
                              of knobs) see above allegory.)

                              So what's to do?

                              We can knock some of the rough edges off the A&S criteria but basically
                              we'll just find more problems.

                              We can try to improve the judging pool by adding ourselves to it, or
                              educating the ones already there. (Educating ourselves is implied here.)

                              We can not worry about it and accept that sometimes you are going to get a
                              judge that doesn't know his stuff, or that some times judges are going to
                              look at your project, look at the criteria and mutter, "Aw crap!" under
                              their breath as they are forced to give you a lower score than they think
                              you deserve.

                              We can get rid of the criterion altogether and just have judges look over
                              your work and then assign it a number between 1 and 30. (Can you say
                              "standard deviation of 15"? I'll bet you can. Sure.)

                              We can get rid of scores altogether and just have judges look at your work
                              and give you comments about it's authenticity, skill, etc. (But some
                              people kind of like shooting for scores. And this will screw up the
                              pentathlon.)

                              We can get rid of judges altogether and just have people wander through
                              the hall judging things that catch there fancy. (You’re project may not
                              get judged at all. Glitzy things will get high scores while simpler
                              things (even if greater in scope) will tend to get low scores. Brewers
                              will be required to bring about 20 gallons of their work.)

                              Or, the one that I like best, we can get rid of scores, criterion and
                              judges and, at a couple of events every year, announce that there is going
                              to be a woodworkers gathering (or whatever art or science it is that you
                              do) and do an art school kind of critique, preferably with a couple cold
                              ones. (This screws up the pentathlon and takes away the game that people
                              shooting for those high scores are playing, but I think it would go a long
                              way to create a community of scribes, woodworkers, costumers, brewers,
                              what have you within the kingdom.)

                              BTW – make any of these changes to and expect someone to scream, “Give us
                              Barabus!” whenever your name is mentioned, but such is life.

                              Avery
                            • Tom Rettie
                              ... I m Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and Kingdom Arts
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                                >But, in my opinion, the A&S Faire does actually still work at some
                                >level… but not as any real lathe by on which masterworks can be successfully
                                >turned… nor does it work really well for basic entry level stuff or for
                                >serious
                                >academics of this or that art/science. The activity is a competition that
                                >is designed for those people who want some form of competition (why???
                                >don't know…) in their Arts and Sciences arena and does seem, for the most
                                >part,
                                >to work well for, what I consider to be, mid-level folks. (Although some
                                >of the criteria do work pretty well for some pretty advanced stuff…
                                >particularly
                                >in arts that are well developed within the kingdom.)

                                I'm Atlantian, so please forgive my interkingdom ignorance regarding
                                Midrealm A&S. We have two kingdom-level A&S institutions: University, and
                                Kingdom Arts and Sciences Festival (KASF).

                                Atlantian University works really well. We have it three times a year,
                                rotating through various regions so eventually it comes to a barony near
                                you. Anyone can teach just about anything they want, which does lead to an
                                occasional stinker of a class, but on the whole we get a great variety of
                                reasonably well taught classes, and occasionally real gems. The lack of
                                veting/bureaucracy around teaching encourages folks to try it out, and the
                                bad ones usually don't keep at it.

                                At one point we also did "town and gown" at University, where artisans
                                would do hands-on demos in addition to the classes. That's pretty much
                                fallen out of favor, but a revival gets proposed now and again.

                                KASF is a more problematic beast. It is an event for both A&S demos/static
                                displays, and competitions. More lately there has been a big push on the
                                competitions, and coincidently there's been a big drop in attendance (I'm
                                not saying that's cause-and-effect, just observation). I love the live demo
                                part, but logistically it's tough to lug everything out to an event where
                                you may have no where to set up, or you may get relegated to some
                                out-of-the-way boondock where no one sees you. We're working on fixing this
                                one, but it's still to be determined how.

                                Atlantia has also recently implemented some more formal/regular
                                competitions, including Personna Pentathalon and one that rotates through
                                time periods. I won't go into why I don't like them, since obviously some
                                folks do and that's okay. But in Atlantia at least, I find it's the
                                teaching and live demo scenarios where SCA A&S really starts to accomplish
                                what I think it should for a tax-exempt "educational" organization.

                                Your servant,

                                Fin

                                ------------------------------------------------
                                Tom Rettie tom@...
                                http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                              • Tom Rettie
                                ... Oh damn, you ve pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies up front for all those I m about to offend, please don t take it personally. In
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                                  >Does a woodworker have to become a master metalworker (or invest oodles in
                                  >reproduction tools) to just get that bloody four, while a calligrapher can
                                  >get it with a feather and an xacto knife?

                                  Oh damn, you've pressed the play button for my Laurel Heresy. My apologies
                                  up front for all those I'm about to offend, please don't take it personally.

                                  In truth, very very few of us in the SCA (Laurel or otherwise) are masters
                                  of any trade or craft, and I daresay that none of us are masters of a
                                  medieval craft. That's not a shot at anyone, or to belittle what we do. I
                                  think that's just realism.

                                  My Elizabethan alter ego would have spent 7 years, six days a week from the
                                  age of 14, learning his trade. He would have then spent the rest of his
                                  life, six days a week, practicing it. I will never invest that sort of time
                                  and energy in chairmaking, and even if I did, I could never recreate all
                                  the things he would have needed to know. How much should I pay for
                                  materials? Where do I buy my tools, and what's a fair price? Does my
                                  livery company allow me to cut a mortise and tenon, or do I have to
                                  subcontract that out to a joiner? Is it worth the expense of the candles
                                  for me to work into the evening hours?

                                  So does that mean we shouldn't try? Of course not. But we should realize
                                  the limitations of what we do and accept our boundaries. We can't reproduce
                                  history, we can only produce our best interpretation of it, and we will
                                  always be lacking. So rather than dwell on the 683 ways someone is not
                                  authentic, let's concentrate on the 14 things they got right, and work on
                                  making it 15 (and sharing that with other like-minded geeks).

                                  And don't be too envious of the calligraphers who "get off easy" because
                                  they're not tool-intensive; there's a move on here in Atlantia to start
                                  doing real period calligraphy rather than the rather fanciful stuff that
                                  has become tradition in the SCA (more legal documents and real period
                                  models). Even on well-tread paths, there are folks who will find a way to
                                  blaze a new trail and make even us old think-we-know-it-all's follow them.

                                  Okay, that's my heresy. If you must burn me for it, please use a nice
                                  seasoned hardwood and be sure to get a good draft going so it doesn't smoke
                                  up the house.

                                  Your obedient servant,

                                  Fin

                                  ------------------------------------------------
                                  Tom Rettie tom@...
                                  http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                                • jrwinkler@msn.com
                                  Hey Fin. Personally, I ain t for burning you at the steak for your hearsy. but rather burnin you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 23, 2003
                                    Hey Fin…
                                     
                                    Personally, I ain't for burning you at the steak for your hearsy… but rather burnin' you A steak (complete with baked potato and all the trimmins')!!!!    … again you echo much of my own sentiments.  I don't refer to myself as an 'expert' at anything (I'm even a marginal performer as a slacker…)… but rather a "talented amateur"…    I like your sentiments… and your observations are right on.   The more I begin to understand about the craft of the medieval carpenter or turner… the less I realize I know…
                                     
                                    Our A&S Faire is an interesting beast with a long line of history and dark tales surrounding it.  If you REALLY wanna' kinda' get a feel for it…  go to:
                                     
                                     
                                    Once there, click on the Minister of Arts and Sciences button (KMOAS) on the left side of the page…  then look for something called "Middle Kindom Arts and Sciences Criteria"…    You'll need to click "On to the Criteria" on the next page after the dire warning about the written criteria having senority over the e-criteria… but then… welcome to the wonderful world of Midrealm A&S Faire stuff…
                                     
                                    I would encourage you to check out the criteria entitled :Wood construction…   ;-O
                                     
                                    Granted that's just one venue… but it is kinda' the great granddaddy of em' and there be a fair number of people who play in it…  some more religiously than others….
                                     
                                    Yer' most obdn't servant -
                                    Chas.
                                     
                                    Oh… HEY AVERY…  I also dig your post… one of the best expository pieces of writing I've seen from ya' for a while…  but then, I'm not on the Middlebridge…
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                  • Joseph Hayes
                                    Hi all, OK, So I m not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year. Darn! ;) Well, here s your chance to train me! I know what my interpretation of
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
                                      Hi all,

                                      OK, So I'm not going to re-train all the woodworking judges this year.
                                      Darn! ;) Well, here's your chance to train me!

                                      I know what my interpretation of the Wood Construction Criteria is, how
                                      about all of you giving me your opinion as to what you look for. Maybe
                                      we can turn this into an online judges training camp.

                                      Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                                      response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                                      1. Documentation - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                                      Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a primary source?
                                      Bonus question #2 - Do you count a translated book as a primary
                                      source?

                                      2. Authenticity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria
                                      Bonus question #1 - Do you allow "reasonable" substitutions (ie,
                                      White Oak instead of English Oak or a metal hand plane instead
                                      of a wood one) ?

                                      3. Scope - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                                      categories:
                                      Difficulty of material to work
                                      Number of techniques used
                                      Difficulty of techniques attempted
                                      Type of project (this one is spelled out in criteria)
                                      Extent gone to ensure authenticity of techniques used

                                      4. Skill - What does it take to get a score of 6 in the following
                                      categories:
                                      Application of techniques
                                      Handling of grain
                                      How wood is utilized in the entry
                                      Finishing
                                      Tightness of joints

                                      5. Creativity - Score levels are spelled out in criteria, but this one
                                      seems more subjective. What does it take to get a score of 4?
                                      Bonus question #1 - If the piece doesn't allow for creativity,
                                      (ie, that's the way it was always done or it's based on
                                      few extant pieces) do you score high or low?

                                      BTW, even if you're not from the Midrealm, feel free to answer.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Ulrich


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                                    • Tom Rettie
                                      ... A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
                                        >Feel free to post as little or as much as you like. Depending on
                                        >response, I'll try to summarize the answers later.

                                        A while back Drachenwald did an overhaul of their A&S critiera and Master
                                        Terafan very graciously listened to my rantings. You can find their current
                                        version here:

                                        http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ferron/sca/as/criteria/woodwork.htm

                                        I still have exceptions to it, but it's much better than it was.

                                        Fin

                                        ------------------------------------------------
                                        Tom Rettie tom@...
                                        http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                        ... A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo? ===== Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
                                          > Bonus question #1 - Do you count a photo as a
                                          > primary source?

                                          A manuscript image is primary,
                                          so why not a photo?

                                          =====
                                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                          ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                        • Joseph Hayes
                                          ... I ve heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are secondary since you re dealing with someone else s interpretation. Others have said unless
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
                                            --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...> wrote:
                                            > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?

                                            I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and paintings are
                                            secondary since you're dealing with someone else's interpretation.
                                            Others have said unless you see it in person, it's secondary (to which
                                            they lump in photos).

                                            I personally think furniture in art is secondary while good quality
                                            photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the original without
                                            analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos don't tell you a
                                            whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary rather than
                                            secondary.

                                            Ulrich


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                                          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                            ... I wasn t saying that I agreed with the fact that manuscript imaages are primary ( just try to build a siege engine from most manuscripts.... ) just that
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jan 24, 2003
                                              --- Joseph Hayes <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart <baronconal@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > A manuscript image is primary, so why not a photo?
                                              >
                                              > I've heard some say furniture in manuscripts and
                                              > paintings are
                                              > secondary since you're dealing with someone else's
                                              > interpretation.
                                              > Others have said unless you see it in person, it's
                                              > secondary (to which
                                              > they lump in photos).
                                              >
                                              > I personally think furniture in art is secondary
                                              > while good quality
                                              > photos are primary (it's a reproduction of the
                                              > original without
                                              > analyzing or interpreting). Granted, some photos
                                              > don't tell you a
                                              > whole lot, but I think that makes them bad primary
                                              > rather than
                                              > secondary.
                                              >
                                              > Ulrich
                                              >
                                              I wasn't saying that I agreed with the
                                              fact that manuscript imaages are primary
                                              ( just try to build a siege engine from
                                              most manuscripts.... ) just that that
                                              is that way that the system is set up

                                              Hey, what do you know, another potential
                                              problem with the criteria....

                                              =====
                                              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                              Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                              ' Dare Something Worthy '

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