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Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

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  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
       
      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
       
      James Cunningham
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
       
      Dragano

      Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

      There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
      known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
      thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
      not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
      chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
      suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
      them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
      which never completely dissipates.)

      (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
      plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
      including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
      and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
      wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

      It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
      to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
      creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
      in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
      treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
      groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
      Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
      mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
      ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
      you an idea of how toxic it is...

      Regards,
      Tim Bray
      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
      creosoting sites


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           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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    • Dan
      I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
        I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

        James Cunningham wrote:

        Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

        What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
        they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
      • julian wilson
        Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
          Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
          Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
          Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
           
          Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
          I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

          James Cunningham wrote:

          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
          they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





          Yours in service,
          Julian Wilson,
          late-medieval Re-enactor.
          Historian and Master Artisan to
          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
          in "olde" Jersey


          Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

        • julian wilson
          I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
            I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
            Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

            "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
             
            What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
             
            James Cunningham
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

            Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
             
            Dragano

            Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
            want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

            There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
            known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
            thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
            not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
            chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
            suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
            them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
            which never completely dissipates.)

            (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
            plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
            including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
            and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
            wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

            It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
            to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
            creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
            in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
            treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
            groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
            Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
            mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

            Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
            ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
            you an idea of how toxic it is...

            Regards,
            Tim Bray
            Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
            creosoting sites


            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




            Do you Yahoo!?
            The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





            Yours in service,
            Julian Wilson,
            late-medieval Re-enactor.
            Historian and Master Artisan to
            "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
            in "olde" Jersey


            ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

          • Tim Bray
            ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

              Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

              Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

              Cheers,
              Colin


              Albion Works
              Furniture and Accessories
              For the Medievalist!
            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                James Cunningham

                >
                > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                >
                > James Cunningham wrote:
                >
                > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                >
                > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                stuff
                > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                  Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                   
                  James Cunningham
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                  I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                  Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                  "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                   
                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                   
                  James Cunningham
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                  Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                   
                  Dragano

                  Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                  want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                  There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                  known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                  thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                  not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                  chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                  suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                  them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                  which never completely dissipates.)

                  (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                  plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                  including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                  and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                  wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                  It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                  to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                  creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                  in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                  treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                  groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                  Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                  mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                  Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                  ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                  you an idea of how toxic it is...

                  Regards,
                  Tim Bray
                  Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                  creosoting sites


                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                  Yours in service,
                  Julian Wilson,
                  late-medieval Re-enactor.
                  Historian and Master Artisan to
                  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                  in "olde" Jersey


                  ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                • Rob Lewis
                  And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                    And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                     
                    So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                     
                    What is creosote?

                    Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                    Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                    Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                    From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                    Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                    They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                    James Cunningham

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