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RE: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

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  • Dragano Abbruciati
    Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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      Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
       
      Dragano

      Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
      I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
      Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

      Master Will
      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


      -----Original Message-----
      From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


      New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
      know
      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
      wood
      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
      few
      years back in Ohio.

      James Cunningham

      >
      >
      > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
      symposium
      > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
      edited
      > >by Sean McGrail.
      >
      > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
      >
      > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
      might
      > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
      >
      > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
      >
      > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
      beginning to
      > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
      >
      > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
      not
      > familiar with.
      >
      > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Colin
      >
      > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
      > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
      >
      >
      > Albion Works
      > Furniture and Accessories
      > For the Medievalist!
      > http://www.albionworks.net
      > http://www.albionworks.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




      Yahoo! Groups Links










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    • Dragano Abbruciati
      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
         
        Dragano

        Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
        Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
        want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

        There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
        known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
        thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
        not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
        chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
        suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
        them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
        which never completely dissipates.)

        (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
        plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
        including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
        and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
        wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

        It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
        to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
        creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
        in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
        treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
        groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
        Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
        mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

        Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
        ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
        you an idea of how toxic it is...

        Regards,
        Tim Bray
        Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
        creosoting sites


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             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
        That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          That would be no in Kentucky also

          they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

          You might try to contact someone at either your
          local phone co or power co in their department
          that deals with new poles and see what they are
          using now.


          --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

          > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
          > like Connal. Does any know
          > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
          > is used to presurve wood
          > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
          > It was outlawed a few
          > years back in Ohio.
          >
          > James Cunningham
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
          > presented to a symposium
          > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
          > edited discussion / edited
          > > >by Sean McGrail.
          > >
          > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
          > me one, willya?
          > >
          > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
          > Ranulf's site), and it might
          > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
          > >
          > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
          > >
          > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
          > recommendation for beginning to
          > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
          > this book.
          > >
          > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
          > OOP. The others I'm not
          > > familiar with.
          > >
          > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
          > terrific.
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > > Colin
          > >
          > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
          > bibliography:
          > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
          > >
          > >
          > > Albion Works
          > > Furniture and Accessories
          > > For the Medievalist!
          > > http://www.albionworks.net
          > > http://www.albionworks.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >


          =====
          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

          Aude Aliquid Dignum
          ' Dare Something Worthy '



          __________________________________
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          Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
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        • C N Schwartz
          I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
            applied liberally.









            -----Original Message-----
            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



            I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
            the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
            poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
            into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

            James Cunningham


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <kjworz@...>
            To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


            >
            > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
            >
            > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
            the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
            Maybe even a better alternative.
            >
            > --
            > -Chris Schwartz
            > Silver Spring, MD
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
            any
            > > > know
            > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
            presurve
            > > > wood
            > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
            a
            > > > few
            > > > years back in Ohio.
            > > >
            > > > James Cunningham
            > > >
            > > >>
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
               
              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
               
              James Cunningham
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

              Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
               
              Dragano

              Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
              want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

              There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
              known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
              thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
              not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
              chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
              suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
              them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
              which never completely dissipates.)

              (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
              plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
              including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
              and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
              wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

              It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
              to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
              creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
              in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
              treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
              groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
              Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
              mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

              Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
              ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
              you an idea of how toxic it is...

              Regards,
              Tim Bray
              Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
              creosoting sites


              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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              The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

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            • Dan
              I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                James Cunningham wrote:

                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
              • julian wilson
                Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                  Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                  Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                   
                  Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                  I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                  James Cunningham wrote:

                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                  they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                  Yours in service,
                  Julian Wilson,
                  late-medieval Re-enactor.
                  Historian and Master Artisan to
                  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                  in "olde" Jersey


                  Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                • julian wilson
                  I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                    Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                    "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                     
                    What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                     
                    James Cunningham
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                    Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                     
                    Dragano

                    Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                    There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                    known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                    thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                    not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                    chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                    suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                    them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                    which never completely dissipates.)

                    (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                    plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                    including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                    and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                    wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                    It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                    to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                    creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                    in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                    treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                    groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                    Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                    mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                    Regards,
                    Tim Bray
                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                    creosoting sites


                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                    The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                    Yours in service,
                    Julian Wilson,
                    late-medieval Re-enactor.
                    Historian and Master Artisan to
                    "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                    in "olde" Jersey


                    ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                  • Tim Bray
                    ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                      Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                      Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                      Cheers,
                      Colin


                      Albion Works
                      Furniture and Accessories
                      For the Medievalist!
                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                        They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                        James Cunningham

                        >
                        > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                        >
                        > James Cunningham wrote:
                        >
                        > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                        >
                        > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                        stuff
                        > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                          Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                           
                          James Cunningham
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                          I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                          Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                          "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                           
                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                           
                          James Cunningham
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                           
                          Dragano

                          Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                          not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                          them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                          which never completely dissipates.)

                          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                          and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                          treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                          Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                          ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                          you an idea of how toxic it is...

                          Regards,
                          Tim Bray
                          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                          creosoting sites


                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                          Yours in service,
                          Julian Wilson,
                          late-medieval Re-enactor.
                          Historian and Master Artisan to
                          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                          in "olde" Jersey


                          ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                        • Rob Lewis
                          And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                            And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                             
                            So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                             
                            What is creosote?

                            Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                            Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                            Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                            They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                            James Cunningham

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