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Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

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  • Tim Bray
    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

      There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
      known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
      thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
      not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
      chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
      suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
      them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
      which never completely dissipates.)

      (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
      plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
      including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
      and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
      wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

      It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
      to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
      creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
      in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
      treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
      groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
      Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
      mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
      ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
      you an idea of how toxic it is...

      Regards,
      Tim Bray
      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
      creosoting sites
    • Bill McNutt
      Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        Tim,
        With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
        paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
        long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

        When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
        pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
        moved away 15 years later.

        Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
        than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

        I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
        bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
        information.

        Master Will

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

        Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
        want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

        <deletia>

        Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
        ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
        give
        you an idea of how toxic it is...

        Regards,
        Tim Bray
        Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
        Superfund
        creosoting sites



        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
        I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
          the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
          poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
          into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

          James Cunningham


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <kjworz@...>
          To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


          >
          > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
          >
          > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
          the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
          Maybe even a better alternative.
          >
          > --
          > -Chris Schwartz
          > Silver Spring, MD
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
          any
          > > > know
          > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
          presurve
          > > > wood
          > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
          a
          > > > few
          > > > years back in Ohio.
          > > >
          > > > James Cunningham
          > > >
          > > >>
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
          So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
             
            James Cunningham
             
            If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

            AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
             
            I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
             
            Laura Lea
            Barony of Darkwater
            Kingdom of Trimaris
             
            :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
             
            In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

            I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
            Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

            Master Will
            http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


            -----Original Message-----
            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


            New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
            know
            if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
            wood
            like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
            few
            years back in Ohio.

            James Cunningham

            >
            >
            > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
            symposium
            > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
            edited
            > >by Sean McGrail.
            >
            > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
            >
            > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
            might
            > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
            >
            > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
            >
            > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
            beginning to
            > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
            >
            > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
            not
            > familiar with.
            >
            > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Colin
            >
            > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
            > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
            >
            >
            > Albion Works
            > Furniture and Accessories
            > For the Medievalist!
            > http://www.albionworks.net
            > http://www.albionworks.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




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          • Dragano Abbruciati
            Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
               
              Dragano

              Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
              I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
              Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

              Master Will
              http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


              -----Original Message-----
              From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


              New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
              know
              if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
              wood
              like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
              few
              years back in Ohio.

              James Cunningham

              >
              >
              > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
              symposium
              > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
              edited
              > >by Sean McGrail.
              >
              > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
              >
              > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
              might
              > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
              >
              > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
              >
              > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
              beginning to
              > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
              >
              > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
              not
              > familiar with.
              >
              > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Colin
              >
              > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
              > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
              >
              >
              > Albion Works
              > Furniture and Accessories
              > For the Medievalist!
              > http://www.albionworks.net
              > http://www.albionworks.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              Yahoo! Groups Links










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            • Dragano Abbruciati
              Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                 
                Dragano

                Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                which never completely dissipates.)

                (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                Regards,
                Tim Bray
                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                creosoting sites


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              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  That would be no in Kentucky also

                  they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                  You might try to contact someone at either your
                  local phone co or power co in their department
                  that deals with new poles and see what they are
                  using now.


                  --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                  > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                  > like Connal. Does any know
                  > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                  > is used to presurve wood
                  > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                  > It was outlawed a few
                  > years back in Ohio.
                  >
                  > James Cunningham
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                  > presented to a symposium
                  > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                  > edited discussion / edited
                  > > >by Sean McGrail.
                  > >
                  > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                  > me one, willya?
                  > >
                  > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                  > Ranulf's site), and it might
                  > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                  > >
                  > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                  > >
                  > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                  > recommendation for beginning to
                  > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                  > this book.
                  > >
                  > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                  > OOP. The others I'm not
                  > > familiar with.
                  > >
                  > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                  > terrific.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > > Colin
                  > >
                  > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                  > bibliography:
                  > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Albion Works
                  > > Furniture and Accessories
                  > > For the Medievalist!
                  > > http://www.albionworks.net
                  > > http://www.albionworks.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  =====
                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                  ' Dare Something Worthy '



                  __________________________________
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                • C N Schwartz
                  I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                    applied liberally.









                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                    I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                    the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                    poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                    into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                    James Cunningham


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <kjworz@...>
                    To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                    >
                    > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                    >
                    > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                    the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                    Maybe even a better alternative.
                    >
                    > --
                    > -Chris Schwartz
                    > Silver Spring, MD
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                    any
                    > > > know
                    > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                    presurve
                    > > > wood
                    > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                    a
                    > > > few
                    > > > years back in Ohio.
                    > > >
                    > > > James Cunningham
                    > > >
                    > > >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                       
                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                       
                      James Cunningham
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                       
                      Dragano

                      Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                      There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                      known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                      thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                      not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                      chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                      suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                      them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                      which never completely dissipates.)

                      (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                      plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                      including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                      and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                      wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                      It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                      to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                      creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                      in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                      treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                      groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                      Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                      mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                      ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                      you an idea of how toxic it is...

                      Regards,
                      Tim Bray
                      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                      creosoting sites


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                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                    • Dan
                      I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                        James Cunningham wrote:

                        Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                        What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                        they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                      • julian wilson
                        Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                          Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                          Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                           
                          Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                          I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                          James Cunningham wrote:

                          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                          they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                          Yours in service,
                          Julian Wilson,
                          late-medieval Re-enactor.
                          Historian and Master Artisan to
                          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                          in "olde" Jersey


                          Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                        • julian wilson
                          I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                            Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                            "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                             
                            What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                             
                            James Cunningham
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                            Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                             
                            Dragano

                            Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                            want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                            There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                            known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                            thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                            not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                            chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                            suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                            them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                            which never completely dissipates.)

                            (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                            plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                            including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                            and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                            wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                            It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                            to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                            creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                            in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                            treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                            groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                            Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                            mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                            Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                            ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                            you an idea of how toxic it is...

                            Regards,
                            Tim Bray
                            Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                            creosoting sites


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                            Julian Wilson,
                            late-medieval Re-enactor.
                            Historian and Master Artisan to
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                            in "olde" Jersey


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                          • Tim Bray
                            ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                              Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                              Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                              Cheers,
                              Colin


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                            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                              They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                James Cunningham

                                >
                                > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                >
                                > James Cunningham wrote:
                                >
                                > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                >
                                > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                stuff
                                > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                  Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                   
                                  James Cunningham
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                  I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                  Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                  "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                   
                                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                   
                                  James Cunningham
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                  Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                   
                                  Dragano

                                  Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                  want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                  There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                  known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                  thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                  not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                  chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                  suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                  them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                  which never completely dissipates.)

                                  (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                  plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                  including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                  and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                  wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                  It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                  to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                  creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                  in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                  treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                  groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                  Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                  mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                  Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                  ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                  you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                  Regards,
                                  Tim Bray
                                  Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                  creosoting sites


                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                  The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                  Yours in service,
                                  Julian Wilson,
                                  late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                  Historian and Master Artisan to
                                  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                  in "olde" Jersey


                                  ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                • Rob Lewis
                                  And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                    And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                     
                                    So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                     
                                    What is creosote?

                                    Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                    Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                    Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                    From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                    They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                    James Cunningham

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