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Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

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  • kjworz@comcast.net
    It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region. But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
      It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.

      But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative. Maybe even a better alternative.

      --
      -Chris Schwartz
      Silver Spring, MD



      >
      > >
      > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
      > > know
      > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
      > > wood
      > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
      > > few
      > > years back in Ohio.
      > >
      > > James Cunningham
      > >
      > >>
    • llofavalon@aol.com
      AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
        AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
         
        I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
         
        Laura Lea
        Barony of Darkwater
        Kingdom of Trimaris
         
        :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
         
        In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

        I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
        Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

        Master Will
        http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


        -----Original Message-----
        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


        New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
        know
        if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
        wood
        like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
        few
        years back in Ohio.

        James Cunningham

        >
        >
        > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
        symposium
        > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
        edited
        > >by Sean McGrail.
        >
        > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
        >
        > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
        might
        > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
        >
        > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
        >
        > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
        beginning to
        > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
        >
        > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
        not
        > familiar with.
        >
        > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Colin
        >
        > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
        > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
        >
        >
        > Albion Works
        > Furniture and Accessories
        > For the Medievalist!
        > http://www.albionworks.net
        > http://www.albionworks.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




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      • Tim Bray
        Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
          not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
          them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
          which never completely dissipates.)

          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
          and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
          treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
          Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
          ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
          you an idea of how toxic it is...

          Regards,
          Tim Bray
          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
          creosoting sites
        • Bill McNutt
          Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
            Tim,
            With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
            paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
            long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

            When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
            pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
            moved away 15 years later.

            Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
            than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

            I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
            bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
            information.

            Master Will

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
            want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

            <deletia>

            Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
            ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
            give
            you an idea of how toxic it is...

            Regards,
            Tim Bray
            Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
            Superfund
            creosoting sites



            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
            I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
              I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
              the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
              poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
              into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

              James Cunningham


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <kjworz@...>
              To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


              >
              > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
              >
              > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
              the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
              Maybe even a better alternative.
              >
              > --
              > -Chris Schwartz
              > Silver Spring, MD
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > >
              > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
              any
              > > > know
              > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
              presurve
              > > > wood
              > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
              a
              > > > few
              > > > years back in Ohio.
              > > >
              > > > James Cunningham
              > > >
              > > >>
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
                 
                James Cunningham
                 
                If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

                AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                 
                I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                 
                Laura Lea
                Barony of Darkwater
                Kingdom of Trimaris
                 
                :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                 
                In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                Master Will
                http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                -----Original Message-----
                From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                know
                if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                wood
                like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                few
                years back in Ohio.

                James Cunningham

                >
                >
                > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                symposium
                > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                edited
                > >by Sean McGrail.
                >
                > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                >
                > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                might
                > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                >
                > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                >
                > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                beginning to
                > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                >
                > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                not
                > familiar with.
                >
                > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Colin
                >
                > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                >
                >
                > Albion Works
                > Furniture and Accessories
                > For the Medievalist!
                > http://www.albionworks.net
                > http://www.albionworks.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >




                Yahoo! Groups Links










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              • Dragano Abbruciati
                Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                  Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
                   
                  Dragano

                  Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                  I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                  Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                  Master Will
                  http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                  New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                  know
                  if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                  wood
                  like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                  few
                  years back in Ohio.

                  James Cunningham

                  >
                  >
                  > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                  symposium
                  > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                  edited
                  > >by Sean McGrail.
                  >
                  > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                  >
                  > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                  might
                  > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                  >
                  > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                  >
                  > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                  beginning to
                  > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                  >
                  > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                  not
                  > familiar with.
                  >
                  > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Colin
                  >
                  > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                  > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                  >
                  >
                  > Albion Works
                  > Furniture and Accessories
                  > For the Medievalist!
                  > http://www.albionworks.net
                  > http://www.albionworks.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >




                  Yahoo! Groups Links










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                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                • Dragano Abbruciati
                  Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                    Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                     
                    Dragano

                    Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                    There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                    known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                    thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                    not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                    chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                    suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                    them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                    which never completely dissipates.)

                    (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                    plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                    including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                    and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                    wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                    It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                    to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                    creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                    in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                    treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                    groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                    Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                    mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                    Regards,
                    Tim Bray
                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                    creosoting sites


                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                    That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                      That would be no in Kentucky also

                      they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                      You might try to contact someone at either your
                      local phone co or power co in their department
                      that deals with new poles and see what they are
                      using now.


                      --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                      > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                      > like Connal. Does any know
                      > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                      > is used to presurve wood
                      > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                      > It was outlawed a few
                      > years back in Ohio.
                      >
                      > James Cunningham
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                      > presented to a symposium
                      > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                      > edited discussion / edited
                      > > >by Sean McGrail.
                      > >
                      > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                      > me one, willya?
                      > >
                      > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                      > Ranulf's site), and it might
                      > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                      > >
                      > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                      > >
                      > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                      > recommendation for beginning to
                      > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                      > this book.
                      > >
                      > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                      > OOP. The others I'm not
                      > > familiar with.
                      > >
                      > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                      > terrific.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers,
                      > > Colin
                      > >
                      > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                      > bibliography:
                      > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Albion Works
                      > > Furniture and Accessories
                      > > For the Medievalist!
                      > > http://www.albionworks.net
                      > > http://www.albionworks.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >


                      =====
                      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                      Aude Aliquid Dignum
                      ' Dare Something Worthy '



                      __________________________________
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                      Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
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                    • C N Schwartz
                      I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                        I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                        applied liberally.









                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                        I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                        the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                        poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                        into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                        James Cunningham


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <kjworz@...>
                        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                        >
                        > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                        >
                        > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                        the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                        Maybe even a better alternative.
                        >
                        > --
                        > -Chris Schwartz
                        > Silver Spring, MD
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                        any
                        > > > know
                        > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                        presurve
                        > > > wood
                        > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                        a
                        > > > few
                        > > > years back in Ohio.
                        > > >
                        > > > James Cunningham
                        > > >
                        > > >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                           
                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                           
                          James Cunningham
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                           
                          Dragano

                          Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                          not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                          them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                          which never completely dissipates.)

                          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                          and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                          treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                          Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                          ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                          you an idea of how toxic it is...

                          Regards,
                          Tim Bray
                          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                          creosoting sites


                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                          The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

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                        • Dan
                          I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                            I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                            James Cunningham wrote:

                            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                            What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                            they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                          • julian wilson
                            Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                              Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                              Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                              Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                               
                              Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                              I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                              James Cunningham wrote:

                              Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                              they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




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                              Yours in service,
                              Julian Wilson,
                              late-medieval Re-enactor.
                              Historian and Master Artisan to
                              "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                              in "olde" Jersey


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                            • julian wilson
                              I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                 
                                What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                 
                                James Cunningham
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                 
                                Dragano

                                Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                which never completely dissipates.)

                                (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                Regards,
                                Tim Bray
                                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                creosoting sites


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                                Yours in service,
                                Julian Wilson,
                                late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                Historian and Master Artisan to
                                "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                in "olde" Jersey


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                              • Tim Bray
                                ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                                  Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                                  Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Colin


                                  Albion Works
                                  Furniture and Accessories
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                                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                  They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                    They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                    James Cunningham

                                    >
                                    > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                    >
                                    > James Cunningham wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                    >
                                    > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                    stuff
                                    > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                    Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                      Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                       
                                      James Cunningham
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                      I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                      Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                      "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                       
                                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                       
                                      James Cunningham
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                       
                                      Dragano

                                      Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                      There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                      known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                      thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                      not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                      chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                      suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                      them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                      which never completely dissipates.)

                                      (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                      plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                      including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                      and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                      wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                      It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                      to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                      creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                      in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                      treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                      groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                      Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                      mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                      ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                      you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                      Regards,
                                      Tim Bray
                                      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                      creosoting sites


                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                      The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                      Yours in service,
                                      Julian Wilson,
                                      late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                      Historian and Master Artisan to
                                      "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                      in "olde" Jersey


                                      ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                    • Rob Lewis
                                      And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                        And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                         
                                        So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                         
                                        What is creosote?

                                        Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                        Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                        Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                        Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                        They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                        James Cunningham

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