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RE: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

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  • Bill McNutt
    I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent Orange, but I m not sure. I haven t seen it in 20 years. Master Will
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2 5:17 AM
      I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
      Orange, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen it in 20 years.

      Master Will
      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


      -----Original Message-----
      From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


      New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
      know
      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
      wood
      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
      few
      years back in Ohio.

      James Cunningham

      >
      >
      > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
      symposium
      > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
      edited
      > >by Sean McGrail.
      >
      > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
      >
      > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
      might
      > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
      >
      > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
      >
      > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for
      beginning to
      > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
      >
      > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
      not
      > familiar with.
      >
      > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Colin
      >
      > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
      > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
      >
      >
      > Albion Works
      > Furniture and Accessories
      > For the Medievalist!
      > http://www.albionworks.net
      > http://www.albionworks.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • maf@gleichen.ca
      I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here. Cered
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2 7:04 AM
        I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial
        toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here.

        Cered


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...>
        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:57 PM
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


        >
        > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
        > know
        > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
        > wood
        > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
        > few
        > years back in Ohio.
        >
        > James Cunningham
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
        >> >symposium
        >> >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
        >> >edited
        >> >by Sean McGrail.
        >>
        >> I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
        >>
        >> I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
        >> might
        >> not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
        >>
        >> > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
        >>
        >> This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning
        >> to
        >> intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
        >>
        >> Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
        >> not
        >> familiar with.
        >>
        >> Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
        >>
        >> Cheers,
        >> Colin
        >>
        >> p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
        >> http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
        >>
        >>
        >> Albion Works
        >> Furniture and Accessories
        >> For the Medievalist!
        >> http://www.albionworks.net
        >> http://www.albionworks.com
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • kjworz@comcast.net
        It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region. But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2 7:10 AM
          It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.

          But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative. Maybe even a better alternative.

          --
          -Chris Schwartz
          Silver Spring, MD



          >
          > >
          > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
          > > know
          > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
          > > wood
          > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
          > > few
          > > years back in Ohio.
          > >
          > > James Cunningham
          > >
          > >>
        • llofavalon@aol.com
          AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2 8:19 AM
            AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
             
            I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
             
            Laura Lea
            Barony of Darkwater
            Kingdom of Trimaris
             
            :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
             
            In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

            I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
            Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

            Master Will
            http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


            -----Original Message-----
            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


            New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
            know
            if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
            wood
            like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
            few
            years back in Ohio.

            James Cunningham

            >
            >
            > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
            symposium
            > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
            edited
            > >by Sean McGrail.
            >
            > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
            >
            > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
            might
            > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
            >
            > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
            >
            > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
            beginning to
            > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
            >
            > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
            not
            > familiar with.
            >
            > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Colin
            >
            > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
            > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
            >
            >
            > Albion Works
            > Furniture and Accessories
            > For the Medievalist!
            > http://www.albionworks.net
            > http://www.albionworks.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            Yahoo! Groups Links










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          • Tim Bray
            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2 8:43 AM
              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
              want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

              There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
              known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
              thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
              not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
              chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
              suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
              them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
              which never completely dissipates.)

              (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
              plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
              including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
              and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
              wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

              It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
              to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
              creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
              in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
              treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
              groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
              Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
              mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

              Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
              ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
              you an idea of how toxic it is...

              Regards,
              Tim Bray
              Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
              creosoting sites
            • Bill McNutt
              Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2 1:55 PM
                Tim,
                With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
                paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
                long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

                When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
                pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
                moved away 15 years later.

                Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
                than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

                I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
                bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
                information.

                Master Will

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                <deletia>

                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
                give
                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                Regards,
                Tim Bray
                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
                Superfund
                creosoting sites



                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2 2:14 PM
                  I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                  the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                  poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                  into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                  James Cunningham


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <kjworz@...>
                  To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                  >
                  > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                  >
                  > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                  the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                  Maybe even a better alternative.
                  >
                  > --
                  > -Chris Schwartz
                  > Silver Spring, MD
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                  any
                  > > > know
                  > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                  presurve
                  > > > wood
                  > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                  a
                  > > > few
                  > > > years back in Ohio.
                  > > >
                  > > > James Cunningham
                  > > >
                  > > >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2 2:17 PM
                    So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
                     
                    James Cunningham
                     
                    If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

                    AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                     
                    I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                     
                    Laura Lea
                    Barony of Darkwater
                    Kingdom of Trimaris
                     
                    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                     
                    In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                    I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                    Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                    Master Will
                    http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                    New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                    know
                    if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                    wood
                    like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                    few
                    years back in Ohio.

                    James Cunningham

                    >
                    >
                    > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                    symposium
                    > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                    edited
                    > >by Sean McGrail.
                    >
                    > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                    >
                    > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                    might
                    > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                    >
                    > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                    >
                    > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                    beginning to
                    > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                    >
                    > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                    not
                    > familiar with.
                    >
                    > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Colin
                    >
                    > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                    > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                    >
                    >
                    > Albion Works
                    > Furniture and Accessories
                    > For the Medievalist!
                    > http://www.albionworks.net
                    > http://www.albionworks.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    Yahoo! Groups Links










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                  • Dragano Abbruciati
                    Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2 2:24 PM
                      Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
                       
                      Dragano

                      Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                      I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                      Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                      Master Will
                      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                      New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                      know
                      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                      wood
                      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                      few
                      years back in Ohio.

                      James Cunningham

                      >
                      >
                      > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                      symposium
                      > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                      edited
                      > >by Sean McGrail.
                      >
                      > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                      >
                      > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                      might
                      > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                      >
                      > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                      >
                      > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                      beginning to
                      > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                      >
                      > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                      not
                      > familiar with.
                      >
                      > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Colin
                      >
                      > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                      > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                      >
                      >
                      > Albion Works
                      > Furniture and Accessories
                      > For the Medievalist!
                      > http://www.albionworks.net
                      > http://www.albionworks.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >




                      Yahoo! Groups Links










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                    • Dragano Abbruciati
                      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2 2:33 PM
                        Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                         
                        Dragano

                        Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                        Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                        want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                        There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                        known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                        thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                        not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                        chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                        suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                        them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                        which never completely dissipates.)

                        (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                        plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                        including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                        and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                        wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                        It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                        to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                        creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                        in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                        treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                        groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                        Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                        mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                        Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                        ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                        you an idea of how toxic it is...

                        Regards,
                        Tim Bray
                        Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                        creosoting sites


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                      • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                        That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2 2:37 PM
                          That would be no in Kentucky also

                          they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                          You might try to contact someone at either your
                          local phone co or power co in their department
                          that deals with new poles and see what they are
                          using now.


                          --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                          > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                          > like Connal. Does any know
                          > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                          > is used to presurve wood
                          > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                          > It was outlawed a few
                          > years back in Ohio.
                          >
                          > James Cunningham
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                          > presented to a symposium
                          > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                          > edited discussion / edited
                          > > >by Sean McGrail.
                          > >
                          > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                          > me one, willya?
                          > >
                          > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                          > Ranulf's site), and it might
                          > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                          > >
                          > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                          > >
                          > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                          > recommendation for beginning to
                          > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                          > this book.
                          > >
                          > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                          > OOP. The others I'm not
                          > > familiar with.
                          > >
                          > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                          > terrific.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > > Colin
                          > >
                          > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                          > bibliography:
                          > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Albion Works
                          > > Furniture and Accessories
                          > > For the Medievalist!
                          > > http://www.albionworks.net
                          > > http://www.albionworks.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >


                          =====
                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                          Aude Aliquid Dignum
                          ' Dare Something Worthy '



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                        • C N Schwartz
                          I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2 2:49 PM
                            I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                            applied liberally.









                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                            I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                            the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                            poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                            into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                            James Cunningham


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <kjworz@...>
                            To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                            >
                            > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                            >
                            > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                            the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                            Maybe even a better alternative.
                            >
                            > --
                            > -Chris Schwartz
                            > Silver Spring, MD
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                            any
                            > > > know
                            > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                            presurve
                            > > > wood
                            > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                            a
                            > > > few
                            > > > years back in Ohio.
                            > > >
                            > > > James Cunningham
                            > > >
                            > > >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2 7:53 PM
                              Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                               
                              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                               
                              James Cunningham
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                              Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                               
                              Dragano

                              Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                              want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                              There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                              known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                              thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                              not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                              chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                              suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                              them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                              which never completely dissipates.)

                              (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                              plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                              including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                              and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                              wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                              It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                              to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                              creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                              in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                              treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                              groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                              Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                              mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                              Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                              ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                              you an idea of how toxic it is...

                              Regards,
                              Tim Bray
                              Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                              creosoting sites


                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                              The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

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                            • Dan
                              I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2 8:03 PM
                                I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                James Cunningham wrote:

                                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                                they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                              • julian wilson
                                Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 3 9:36 AM
                                  Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                                  Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                                  Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                                   
                                  Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                                  I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                  James Cunningham wrote:

                                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                                  they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                  Yours in service,
                                  Julian Wilson,
                                  late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                  Historian and Master Artisan to
                                  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                  in "olde" Jersey


                                  Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                                • julian wilson
                                  I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 3 9:39 AM
                                    I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                    Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                    "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                     
                                    What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                     
                                    James Cunningham
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                    Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                     
                                    Dragano

                                    Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                    There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                    known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                    thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                    not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                    chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                    suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                    them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                    which never completely dissipates.)

                                    (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                    plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                    including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                    and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                    wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                    It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                    to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                    creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                    in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                    treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                    groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                    Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                    mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                    Regards,
                                    Tim Bray
                                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                    creosoting sites


                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                    The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                    Yours in service,
                                    Julian Wilson,
                                    late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                    Historian and Master Artisan to
                                    "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                    in "olde" Jersey


                                    ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                  • Tim Bray
                                    ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 3 1:11 PM
                                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                                      Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                                      Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Colin


                                      Albion Works
                                      Furniture and Accessories
                                      For the Medievalist!
                                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                      They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3 2:34 PM
                                        They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                        James Cunningham

                                        >
                                        > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                        >
                                        > James Cunningham wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                        >
                                        > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                        stuff
                                        > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                        Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3 2:55 PM
                                          Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                           
                                          James Cunningham
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                          I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                          Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                          "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                           
                                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                           
                                          James Cunningham
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                           
                                          Dragano

                                          Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                          not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                          them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                          which never completely dissipates.)

                                          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                          and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                          treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                          Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                          ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                          you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                          Regards,
                                          Tim Bray
                                          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                          creosoting sites


                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                          The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                          Yours in service,
                                          Julian Wilson,
                                          late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                          Historian and Master Artisan to
                                          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                          in "olde" Jersey


                                          ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                        • Rob Lewis
                                          And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3 3:46 PM
                                            And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                             
                                            So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                             
                                            What is creosote?

                                            Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                            Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                            Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                            They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                            James Cunningham

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