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Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

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  • celtwolf@okplus.com
    In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml ... The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide), and
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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      In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml

      > *Regulations*
      >
      > The federal government has not developed regulatory standards and
      > guidelines to protect people from the potential health effects of
      > exposure to coal-tar creosote in drinking water and food. However,
      > regulatory standards and guidelines in air and water exist for the key
      > individual PAHs and phenols contained in creosote. EPA has declared
      > creosote a restricted use pesticide which means that it can only be
      > bought and used by certified applicators and only for those uses
      > covered by the applicator's certification. EPA has concluded that any
      > release of creosote to the environment in excess of 1 pound should be
      > reported.
      >
      > The federal government has developed regulatory standards and
      > guidelines to protect workers from the potential health effects of
      > other coal-tar products in air. OSHA has set a legally enforceable
      > limit (permissible exposure limit, or PEL) of 0.2 milligrams per cubic
      > meter (mg/m3) coal-tar pitch volatiles in workroom air to protect
      > workers during an 8-hour shift.

      The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide),
      and severely restricted it's use by professionals:
      http://www.hse.gov.uk/hthdir/noframes/creosote.htm
      http://www.creosote.co.uk/

      Apparently the EPA has it on their "hit list", which means if you "do"
      find any, get as much as you can, and hoard it!

      C N Schwartz wrote:

      >I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were
      >lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don't
      >know how true it is.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
      >if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
      >like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
      >years back in Ohio.
      >
      >James Cunningham
      >
    • Bill McNutt
      I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent Orange, but I m not sure. I haven t seen it in 20 years. Master Will
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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        I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
        Orange, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen it in 20 years.

        Master Will
        http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


        -----Original Message-----
        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


        New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
        know
        if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
        wood
        like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
        few
        years back in Ohio.

        James Cunningham

        >
        >
        > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
        symposium
        > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
        edited
        > >by Sean McGrail.
        >
        > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
        >
        > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
        might
        > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
        >
        > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
        >
        > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for
        beginning to
        > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
        >
        > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
        not
        > familiar with.
        >
        > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Colin
        >
        > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
        > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
        >
        >
        > Albion Works
        > Furniture and Accessories
        > For the Medievalist!
        > http://www.albionworks.net
        > http://www.albionworks.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • maf@gleichen.ca
        I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here. Cered
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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          I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial
          toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here.

          Cered


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...>
          To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:57 PM
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


          >
          > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
          > know
          > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
          > wood
          > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
          > few
          > years back in Ohio.
          >
          > James Cunningham
          >
          >>
          >>
          >> >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
          >> >symposium
          >> >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
          >> >edited
          >> >by Sean McGrail.
          >>
          >> I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
          >>
          >> I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
          >> might
          >> not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
          >>
          >> > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
          >>
          >> This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning
          >> to
          >> intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
          >>
          >> Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
          >> not
          >> familiar with.
          >>
          >> Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
          >>
          >> Cheers,
          >> Colin
          >>
          >> p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
          >> http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
          >>
          >>
          >> Albion Works
          >> Furniture and Accessories
          >> For the Medievalist!
          >> http://www.albionworks.net
          >> http://www.albionworks.com
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • kjworz@comcast.net
          It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region. But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.

            But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative. Maybe even a better alternative.

            --
            -Chris Schwartz
            Silver Spring, MD



            >
            > >
            > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
            > > know
            > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
            > > wood
            > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
            > > few
            > > years back in Ohio.
            > >
            > > James Cunningham
            > >
            > >>
          • llofavalon@aol.com
            AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
               
              I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
               
              Laura Lea
              Barony of Darkwater
              Kingdom of Trimaris
               
              :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
               
              In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

              I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
              Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

              Master Will
              http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


              -----Original Message-----
              From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


              New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
              know
              if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
              wood
              like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
              few
              years back in Ohio.

              James Cunningham

              >
              >
              > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
              symposium
              > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
              edited
              > >by Sean McGrail.
              >
              > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
              >
              > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
              might
              > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
              >
              > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
              >
              > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
              beginning to
              > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
              >
              > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
              not
              > familiar with.
              >
              > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Colin
              >
              > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
              > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
              >
              >
              > Albion Works
              > Furniture and Accessories
              > For the Medievalist!
              > http://www.albionworks.net
              > http://www.albionworks.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




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            • Tim Bray
              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
                known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
                thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
                chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                which never completely dissipates.)

                (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
                plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
                creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                Regards,
                Tim Bray
                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                creosoting sites
              • Bill McNutt
                Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  Tim,
                  With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
                  paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
                  long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

                  When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
                  pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
                  moved away 15 years later.

                  Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
                  than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

                  I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
                  bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
                  information.

                  Master Will

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                  want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                  <deletia>

                  Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                  ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
                  give
                  you an idea of how toxic it is...

                  Regards,
                  Tim Bray
                  Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
                  Superfund
                  creosoting sites



                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                    the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                    poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                    into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                    James Cunningham


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <kjworz@...>
                    To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                    >
                    > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                    >
                    > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                    the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                    Maybe even a better alternative.
                    >
                    > --
                    > -Chris Schwartz
                    > Silver Spring, MD
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                    any
                    > > > know
                    > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                    presurve
                    > > > wood
                    > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                    a
                    > > > few
                    > > > years back in Ohio.
                    > > >
                    > > > James Cunningham
                    > > >
                    > > >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
                       
                      James Cunningham
                       
                      If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

                      AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                       
                      I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                       
                      Laura Lea
                      Barony of Darkwater
                      Kingdom of Trimaris
                       
                      :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                       
                      In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                      I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                      Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                      Master Will
                      http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                      New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                      know
                      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                      wood
                      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                      few
                      years back in Ohio.

                      James Cunningham

                      >
                      >
                      > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                      symposium
                      > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                      edited
                      > >by Sean McGrail.
                      >
                      > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                      >
                      > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                      might
                      > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                      >
                      > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                      >
                      > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                      beginning to
                      > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                      >
                      > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                      not
                      > familiar with.
                      >
                      > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Colin
                      >
                      > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                      > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                      >
                      >
                      > Albion Works
                      > Furniture and Accessories
                      > For the Medievalist!
                      > http://www.albionworks.net
                      > http://www.albionworks.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >




                      Yahoo! Groups Links










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                    • Dragano Abbruciati
                      Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
                         
                        Dragano

                        Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                        I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                        Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                        Master Will
                        http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                        New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                        know
                        if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                        wood
                        like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                        few
                        years back in Ohio.

                        James Cunningham

                        >
                        >
                        > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                        symposium
                        > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                        edited
                        > >by Sean McGrail.
                        >
                        > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                        >
                        > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                        might
                        > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                        >
                        > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                        >
                        > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                        beginning to
                        > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                        >
                        > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                        not
                        > familiar with.
                        >
                        > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Colin
                        >
                        > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                        > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                        >
                        >
                        > Albion Works
                        > Furniture and Accessories
                        > For the Medievalist!
                        > http://www.albionworks.net
                        > http://www.albionworks.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        Yahoo! Groups Links










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                      • Dragano Abbruciati
                        Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                           
                          Dragano

                          Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                          not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                          them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                          which never completely dissipates.)

                          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                          and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                          treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                          Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                          ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                          you an idea of how toxic it is...

                          Regards,
                          Tim Bray
                          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                          creosoting sites


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                        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                          That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                            That would be no in Kentucky also

                            they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                            You might try to contact someone at either your
                            local phone co or power co in their department
                            that deals with new poles and see what they are
                            using now.


                            --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                            > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                            > like Connal. Does any know
                            > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                            > is used to presurve wood
                            > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                            > It was outlawed a few
                            > years back in Ohio.
                            >
                            > James Cunningham
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                            > presented to a symposium
                            > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                            > edited discussion / edited
                            > > >by Sean McGrail.
                            > >
                            > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                            > me one, willya?
                            > >
                            > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                            > Ranulf's site), and it might
                            > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                            > >
                            > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                            > >
                            > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                            > recommendation for beginning to
                            > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                            > this book.
                            > >
                            > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                            > OOP. The others I'm not
                            > > familiar with.
                            > >
                            > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                            > terrific.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > Colin
                            > >
                            > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                            > bibliography:
                            > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Albion Works
                            > > Furniture and Accessories
                            > > For the Medievalist!
                            > > http://www.albionworks.net
                            > > http://www.albionworks.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >


                            =====
                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                            ' Dare Something Worthy '



                            __________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
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                          • C N Schwartz
                            I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                              applied liberally.









                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                              I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                              the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                              poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                              into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                              James Cunningham


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <kjworz@...>
                              To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                              >
                              > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                              >
                              > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                              the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                              Maybe even a better alternative.
                              >
                              > --
                              > -Chris Schwartz
                              > Silver Spring, MD
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                              any
                              > > > know
                              > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                              presurve
                              > > > wood
                              > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                              a
                              > > > few
                              > > > years back in Ohio.
                              > > >
                              > > > James Cunningham
                              > > >
                              > > >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                              Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                 
                                What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                 
                                James Cunningham
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                 
                                Dragano

                                Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                which never completely dissipates.)

                                (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                Regards,
                                Tim Bray
                                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                creosoting sites


                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                              • Dan
                                I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                  James Cunningham wrote:

                                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                                  they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                • julian wilson
                                  Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                                    Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                                    Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                                     
                                    Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                                    I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                    James Cunningham wrote:

                                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                    What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                                    they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                    Yours in service,
                                    Julian Wilson,
                                    late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                    Historian and Master Artisan to
                                    "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                    in "olde" Jersey


                                    Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                                  • julian wilson
                                    I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                      Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                      "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                       
                                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                       
                                      James Cunningham
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                      Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                       
                                      Dragano

                                      Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                      There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                      known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                      thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                      not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                      chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                      suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                      them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                      which never completely dissipates.)

                                      (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                      plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                      including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                      and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                      wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                      It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                      to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                      creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                      in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                      treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                      groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                      Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                      mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                      ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                      you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                      Regards,
                                      Tim Bray
                                      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                      creosoting sites


                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                      The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                      Yours in service,
                                      Julian Wilson,
                                      late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                      Historian and Master Artisan to
                                      "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                      in "olde" Jersey


                                      ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                    • Tim Bray
                                      ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                                        Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                                        Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Colin


                                        Albion Works
                                        Furniture and Accessories
                                        For the Medievalist!
                                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                        They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                          James Cunningham

                                          >
                                          > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                          >
                                          > James Cunningham wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                          >
                                          > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                          stuff
                                          > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                          Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                             
                                            James Cunningham
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                            I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                            Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                            "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                            Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                             
                                            What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                             
                                            James Cunningham
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                            Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                             
                                            Dragano

                                            Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                            want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                            There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                            known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                            thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                            not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                            chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                            suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                            them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                            which never completely dissipates.)

                                            (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                            plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                            including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                            and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                            wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                            It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                            to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                            creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                            in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                            treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                            groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                            Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                            mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                            Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                            ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                            you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                            Regards,
                                            Tim Bray
                                            Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                            creosoting sites


                                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                            The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                            Yours in service,
                                            Julian Wilson,
                                            late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                            Historian and Master Artisan to
                                            "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                            in "olde" Jersey


                                            ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                          • Rob Lewis
                                            And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                               
                                              So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                               
                                              What is creosote?

                                              Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                              Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                              Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                              From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                              They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                              James Cunningham

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