Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

Expand Messages
  • C N Schwartz
    I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don t know how true
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were
      lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don't
      know how true it is.





      -----Original Message-----




      New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
      years back in Ohio.

      James Cunningham

      >
    • celtwolf@okplus.com
      In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml ... The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide), and
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml

        > *Regulations*
        >
        > The federal government has not developed regulatory standards and
        > guidelines to protect people from the potential health effects of
        > exposure to coal-tar creosote in drinking water and food. However,
        > regulatory standards and guidelines in air and water exist for the key
        > individual PAHs and phenols contained in creosote. EPA has declared
        > creosote a restricted use pesticide which means that it can only be
        > bought and used by certified applicators and only for those uses
        > covered by the applicator's certification. EPA has concluded that any
        > release of creosote to the environment in excess of 1 pound should be
        > reported.
        >
        > The federal government has developed regulatory standards and
        > guidelines to protect workers from the potential health effects of
        > other coal-tar products in air. OSHA has set a legally enforceable
        > limit (permissible exposure limit, or PEL) of 0.2 milligrams per cubic
        > meter (mg/m3) coal-tar pitch volatiles in workroom air to protect
        > workers during an 8-hour shift.

        The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide),
        and severely restricted it's use by professionals:
        http://www.hse.gov.uk/hthdir/noframes/creosote.htm
        http://www.creosote.co.uk/

        Apparently the EPA has it on their "hit list", which means if you "do"
        find any, get as much as you can, and hoard it!

        C N Schwartz wrote:

        >I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were
        >lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don't
        >know how true it is.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
        >if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
        >like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
        >years back in Ohio.
        >
        >James Cunningham
        >
      • Bill McNutt
        I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent Orange, but I m not sure. I haven t seen it in 20 years. Master Will
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
          Orange, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen it in 20 years.

          Master Will
          http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


          -----Original Message-----
          From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


          New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
          know
          if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
          wood
          like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
          few
          years back in Ohio.

          James Cunningham

          >
          >
          > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
          symposium
          > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
          edited
          > >by Sean McGrail.
          >
          > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
          >
          > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
          might
          > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
          >
          > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
          >
          > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for
          beginning to
          > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
          >
          > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
          not
          > familiar with.
          >
          > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Colin
          >
          > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
          > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
          >
          >
          > Albion Works
          > Furniture and Accessories
          > For the Medievalist!
          > http://www.albionworks.net
          > http://www.albionworks.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >




          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • maf@gleichen.ca
          I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here. Cered
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial
            toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here.

            Cered


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...>
            To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:57 PM
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


            >
            > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
            > know
            > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
            > wood
            > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
            > few
            > years back in Ohio.
            >
            > James Cunningham
            >
            >>
            >>
            >> >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
            >> >symposium
            >> >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
            >> >edited
            >> >by Sean McGrail.
            >>
            >> I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
            >>
            >> I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
            >> might
            >> not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
            >>
            >> > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
            >>
            >> This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning
            >> to
            >> intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
            >>
            >> Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
            >> not
            >> familiar with.
            >>
            >> Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
            >>
            >> Cheers,
            >> Colin
            >>
            >> p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
            >> http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
            >>
            >>
            >> Albion Works
            >> Furniture and Accessories
            >> For the Medievalist!
            >> http://www.albionworks.net
            >> http://www.albionworks.com
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • kjworz@comcast.net
            It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region. But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.

              But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative. Maybe even a better alternative.

              --
              -Chris Schwartz
              Silver Spring, MD



              >
              > >
              > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
              > > know
              > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
              > > wood
              > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
              > > few
              > > years back in Ohio.
              > >
              > > James Cunningham
              > >
              > >>
            • llofavalon@aol.com
              AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                 
                I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                 
                Laura Lea
                Barony of Darkwater
                Kingdom of Trimaris
                 
                :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                 
                In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                Master Will
                http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                -----Original Message-----
                From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                know
                if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                wood
                like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                few
                years back in Ohio.

                James Cunningham

                >
                >
                > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                symposium
                > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                edited
                > >by Sean McGrail.
                >
                > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                >
                > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                might
                > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                >
                > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                >
                > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                beginning to
                > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                >
                > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                not
                > familiar with.
                >
                > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Colin
                >
                > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                >
                >
                > Albion Works
                > Furniture and Accessories
                > For the Medievalist!
                > http://www.albionworks.net
                > http://www.albionworks.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >




                Yahoo! Groups Links










                ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
                $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
                Click Here!
                --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/

                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                 
              • Tim Bray
                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                  want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                  There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
                  known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
                  thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                  not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
                  chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                  suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                  them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                  which never completely dissipates.)

                  (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
                  plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                  including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                  and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                  wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                  It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                  to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
                  creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                  in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                  treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                  groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                  Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                  mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                  Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                  ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
                  you an idea of how toxic it is...

                  Regards,
                  Tim Bray
                  Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                  creosoting sites
                • Bill McNutt
                  Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Tim,
                    With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
                    paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
                    long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

                    When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
                    pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
                    moved away 15 years later.

                    Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
                    than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

                    I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
                    bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
                    information.

                    Master Will

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                    <deletia>

                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
                    give
                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                    Regards,
                    Tim Bray
                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
                    Superfund
                    creosoting sites



                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                      the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                      poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                      into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                      James Cunningham


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <kjworz@...>
                      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                      >
                      > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                      >
                      > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                      the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                      Maybe even a better alternative.
                      >
                      > --
                      > -Chris Schwartz
                      > Silver Spring, MD
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                      any
                      > > > know
                      > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                      presurve
                      > > > wood
                      > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                      a
                      > > > few
                      > > > years back in Ohio.
                      > > >
                      > > > James Cunningham
                      > > >
                      > > >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
                         
                        James Cunningham
                         
                        If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

                        AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                         
                        I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                         
                        Laura Lea
                        Barony of Darkwater
                        Kingdom of Trimaris
                         
                        :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                         
                        In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                        I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                        Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                        Master Will
                        http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                        New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                        know
                        if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                        wood
                        like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                        few
                        years back in Ohio.

                        James Cunningham

                        >
                        >
                        > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                        symposium
                        > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                        edited
                        > >by Sean McGrail.
                        >
                        > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                        >
                        > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                        might
                        > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                        >
                        > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                        >
                        > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                        beginning to
                        > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                        >
                        > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                        not
                        > familiar with.
                        >
                        > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Colin
                        >
                        > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                        > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                        >
                        >
                        > Albion Works
                        > Furniture and Accessories
                        > For the Medievalist!
                        > http://www.albionworks.net
                        > http://www.albionworks.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        Yahoo! Groups Links










                        ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
                        $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
                        Click Here!
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/

                        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                         


                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                      • Dragano Abbruciati
                        Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
                           
                          Dragano

                          Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                          I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                          Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                          Master Will
                          http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                          New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                          know
                          if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                          wood
                          like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                          few
                          years back in Ohio.

                          James Cunningham

                          >
                          >
                          > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                          symposium
                          > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                          edited
                          > >by Sean McGrail.
                          >
                          > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                          >
                          > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                          might
                          > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                          >
                          > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                          >
                          > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                          beginning to
                          > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                          >
                          > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                          not
                          > familiar with.
                          >
                          > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Colin
                          >
                          > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                          > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                          >
                          >
                          > Albion Works
                          > Furniture and Accessories
                          > For the Medievalist!
                          > http://www.albionworks.net
                          > http://www.albionworks.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




                          Yahoo! Groups Links










                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.

                        • Dragano Abbruciati
                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                             
                            Dragano

                            Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                            Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                            want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                            There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                            known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                            thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                            not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                            chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                            suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                            them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                            which never completely dissipates.)

                            (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                            plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                            including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                            and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                            wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                            It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                            to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                            creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                            in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                            treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                            groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                            Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                            mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                            Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                            ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                            you an idea of how toxic it is...

                            Regards,
                            Tim Bray
                            Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                            creosoting sites


                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free!

                          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                            That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That would be no in Kentucky also

                              they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                              You might try to contact someone at either your
                              local phone co or power co in their department
                              that deals with new poles and see what they are
                              using now.


                              --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                              > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                              > like Connal. Does any know
                              > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                              > is used to presurve wood
                              > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                              > It was outlawed a few
                              > years back in Ohio.
                              >
                              > James Cunningham
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                              > presented to a symposium
                              > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                              > edited discussion / edited
                              > > >by Sean McGrail.
                              > >
                              > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                              > me one, willya?
                              > >
                              > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                              > Ranulf's site), and it might
                              > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                              > >
                              > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                              > >
                              > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                              > recommendation for beginning to
                              > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                              > this book.
                              > >
                              > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                              > OOP. The others I'm not
                              > > familiar with.
                              > >
                              > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                              > terrific.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers,
                              > > Colin
                              > >
                              > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                              > bibliography:
                              > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Albion Works
                              > > Furniture and Accessories
                              > > For the Medievalist!
                              > > http://www.albionworks.net
                              > > http://www.albionworks.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >


                              =====
                              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                              Aude Aliquid Dignum
                              ' Dare Something Worthy '



                              __________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
                              http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
                            • C N Schwartz
                              I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                                applied liberally.









                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                                I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                                the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                                poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                                into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                                James Cunningham


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: <kjworz@...>
                                To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                                >
                                > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                                >
                                > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                                the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                                Maybe even a better alternative.
                                >
                                > --
                                > -Chris Schwartz
                                > Silver Spring, MD
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                                any
                                > > > know
                                > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                                presurve
                                > > > wood
                                > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                                a
                                > > > few
                                > > > years back in Ohio.
                                > > >
                                > > > James Cunningham
                                > > >
                                > > >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >




                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                   
                                  What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                   
                                  James Cunningham
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                  Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                   
                                  Dragano

                                  Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                  want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                  There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                  known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                  thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                  not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                  chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                  suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                  them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                  which never completely dissipates.)

                                  (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                  plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                  including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                  and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                  wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                  It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                  to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                  creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                  in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                  treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                  groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                  Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                  mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                  Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                  ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                  you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                  Regards,
                                  Tim Bray
                                  Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                  creosoting sites


                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                  Do you Yahoo!?
                                  The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                • Dan
                                  I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                    James Cunningham wrote:

                                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                    What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                                    they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                  • julian wilson
                                    Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                                      Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                                      Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                                       
                                      Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                                      I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                      James Cunningham wrote:

                                      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                                      they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                      Yours in service,
                                      Julian Wilson,
                                      late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                      Historian and Master Artisan to
                                      "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                      in "olde" Jersey


                                      Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                                    • julian wilson
                                      I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                        Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                        "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                        Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                         
                                        What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                         
                                        James Cunningham
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                        Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                         
                                        Dragano

                                        Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                        Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                        want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                        There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                        known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                        thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                        not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                        chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                        suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                        them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                        which never completely dissipates.)

                                        (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                        plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                        including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                        and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                        wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                        It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                        to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                        creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                        in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                        treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                        groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                        Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                        mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                        Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                        ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                        you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                        Regards,
                                        Tim Bray
                                        Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                        creosoting sites


                                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                        The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                        Yours in service,
                                        Julian Wilson,
                                        late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                        Historian and Master Artisan to
                                        "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                        in "olde" Jersey


                                        ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                      • Tim Bray
                                        ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                                          Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                                          Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                                          Cheers,
                                          Colin


                                          Albion Works
                                          Furniture and Accessories
                                          For the Medievalist!
                                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                          They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                            James Cunningham

                                            >
                                            > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                            >
                                            > James Cunningham wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                            >
                                            > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                            stuff
                                            > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                            Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                               
                                              James Cunningham
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                              I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                              Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                              "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                              Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                               
                                              What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                               
                                              James Cunningham
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                              Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                               
                                              Dragano

                                              Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                              want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                              There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                              known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                              thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                              not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                              chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                              suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                              them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                              which never completely dissipates.)

                                              (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                              plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                              including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                              and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                              wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                              It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                              to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                              creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                              in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                              treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                              groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                              Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                              mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                              Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                              ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                              you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                              Regards,
                                              Tim Bray
                                              Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                              creosoting sites


                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                              Do you Yahoo!?
                                              The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                              Yours in service,
                                              Julian Wilson,
                                              late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                              Historian and Master Artisan to
                                              "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                              in "olde" Jersey


                                              ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                            • Rob Lewis
                                              And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                                 
                                                So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                                 
                                                What is creosote?

                                                Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                                Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                                Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                                From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                                They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                                James Cunningham

                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.