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  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
    New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood like
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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      New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
      if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
      like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
      years back in Ohio.

      James Cunningham

      >
      >
      > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium
      > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited
      > >by Sean McGrail.
      >
      > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
      >
      > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it might
      > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
      >
      > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
      >
      > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning to
      > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
      >
      > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm not
      > familiar with.
      >
      > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Colin
      >
      > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
      > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
      >
      >
      > Albion Works
      > Furniture and Accessories
      > For the Medievalist!
      > http://www.albionworks.net
      > http://www.albionworks.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • C N Schwartz
      I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don t know how true
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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        I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were
        lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don't
        know how true it is.





        -----Original Message-----




        New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
        if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
        like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
        years back in Ohio.

        James Cunningham

        >
      • celtwolf@okplus.com
        In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml ... The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide), and
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 2004
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          In all likelyhood, true. From http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml

          > *Regulations*
          >
          > The federal government has not developed regulatory standards and
          > guidelines to protect people from the potential health effects of
          > exposure to coal-tar creosote in drinking water and food. However,
          > regulatory standards and guidelines in air and water exist for the key
          > individual PAHs and phenols contained in creosote. EPA has declared
          > creosote a restricted use pesticide which means that it can only be
          > bought and used by certified applicators and only for those uses
          > covered by the applicator's certification. EPA has concluded that any
          > release of creosote to the environment in excess of 1 pound should be
          > reported.
          >
          > The federal government has developed regulatory standards and
          > guidelines to protect workers from the potential health effects of
          > other coal-tar products in air. OSHA has set a legally enforceable
          > limit (permissible exposure limit, or PEL) of 0.2 milligrams per cubic
          > meter (mg/m3) coal-tar pitch volatiles in workroom air to protect
          > workers during an 8-hour shift.

          The EU has completely banned it for amateur use (esp. as a pesticide),
          and severely restricted it's use by professionals:
          http://www.hse.gov.uk/hthdir/noframes/creosote.htm
          http://www.creosote.co.uk/

          Apparently the EPA has it on their "hit list", which means if you "do"
          find any, get as much as you can, and hoard it!

          C N Schwartz wrote:

          >I heard it being outlawed in Maryland 15+ years ago when adults were
          >lamenting not being able to get creosote soaked railroad ties, but I don't
          >know how true it is.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any know
          >if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve wood
          >like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a few
          >years back in Ohio.
          >
          >James Cunningham
          >
        • Bill McNutt
          I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent Orange, but I m not sure. I haven t seen it in 20 years. Master Will
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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            I think it got banned. I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
            Orange, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen it in 20 years.

            Master Will
            http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


            -----Original Message-----
            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


            New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
            know
            if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
            wood
            like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
            few
            years back in Ohio.

            James Cunningham

            >
            >
            > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
            symposium
            > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
            edited
            > >by Sean McGrail.
            >
            > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
            >
            > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
            might
            > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
            >
            > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
            >
            > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for
            beginning to
            > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
            >
            > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
            not
            > familiar with.
            >
            > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Colin
            >
            > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
            > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
            >
            >
            > Albion Works
            > Furniture and Accessories
            > For the Medievalist!
            > http://www.albionworks.net
            > http://www.albionworks.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • maf@gleichen.ca
            I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here. Cered
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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              I know in alberta that the old railway ties goto Swan Hills (the provincial
              toxic waste disposal facility). I know it is a restricted substance up here.

              Cered


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...>
              To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:57 PM
              Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


              >
              > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
              > know
              > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
              > wood
              > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
              > few
              > years back in Ohio.
              >
              > James Cunningham
              >
              >>
              >>
              >> >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
              >> >symposium
              >> >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
              >> >edited
              >> >by Sean McGrail.
              >>
              >> I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?
              >>
              >> I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
              >> might
              >> not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
              >>
              >> > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
              >>
              >> This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning
              >> to
              >> intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.
              >>
              >> Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm
              >> not
              >> familiar with.
              >>
              >> Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
              >>
              >> Cheers,
              >> Colin
              >>
              >> p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
              >> http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
              >>
              >>
              >> Albion Works
              >> Furniture and Accessories
              >> For the Medievalist!
              >> http://www.albionworks.net
              >> http://www.albionworks.com
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • kjworz@comcast.net
              It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region. But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.

                But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative. Maybe even a better alternative.

                --
                -Chris Schwartz
                Silver Spring, MD



                >
                > >
                > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does any
                > > know
                > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                > > wood
                > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed a
                > > few
                > > years back in Ohio.
                > >
                > > James Cunningham
                > >
                > >>
              • llofavalon@aol.com
                AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                  AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                   
                  I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                   
                  Laura Lea
                  Barony of Darkwater
                  Kingdom of Trimaris
                   
                  :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                   
                  In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                  I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                  Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                  Master Will
                  http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                  New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                  know
                  if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                  wood
                  like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                  few
                  years back in Ohio.

                  James Cunningham

                  >
                  >
                  > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                  symposium
                  > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                  edited
                  > >by Sean McGrail.
                  >
                  > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                  >
                  > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                  might
                  > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                  >
                  > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                  >
                  > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                  beginning to
                  > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                  >
                  > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                  not
                  > familiar with.
                  >
                  > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Colin
                  >
                  > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                  > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                  >
                  >
                  > Albion Works
                  > Furniture and Accessories
                  > For the Medievalist!
                  > http://www.albionworks.net
                  > http://www.albionworks.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >




                  Yahoo! Groups Links










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                • Tim Bray
                  Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use? There are reasons why this
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                    There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw). It is a
                    known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans. (It
                    thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                    not merely "suspected" of it.) In addition, it is composed largely of
                    chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                    suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                    them when you work with the stuff. (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                    which never completely dissipates.)

                    (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange. That was 2,4-D
                    plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                    including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                    and teratogenic. Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                    wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                    It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                    to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood. The
                    creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                    in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                    treatment. Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                    groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                    Superfund list. Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                    mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should give
                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                    Regards,
                    Tim Bray
                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                    creosoting sites
                  • Bill McNutt
                    Tim, With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts long in
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                      Tim,
                      With all due respect, and not intending to be a smarty-boots, your last
                      paragraph answers the question you ask in your first: because it lasts
                      long in ground or water contact than any other treatment method.

                      When I was a boy, my dad and I put fence poles made of creosote-coated
                      pine directly into bare earth that were still standing firm when we
                      moved away 15 years later.

                      Worth the risk of exposure to toxins? Probably not. But "works better
                      than any other method" is a powerful persuasive feature.

                      I bow to your superior knowledge of chemical compound guts. If it isn't
                      bound together by lignin or 10-base-T cable, I'm working with half-assed
                      information.

                      Master Will

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@...]

                      Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why would you
                      want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                      <deletia>

                      Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                      ground or water contact than any other treatment method. That should
                      give
                      you an idea of how toxic it is...

                      Regards,
                      Tim Bray
                      Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those
                      Superfund
                      creosoting sites



                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use poormans
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                        I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                        the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                        poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                        into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                        James Cunningham


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <kjworz@...>
                        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                        >
                        > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                        >
                        > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                        the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                        Maybe even a better alternative.
                        >
                        > --
                        > -Chris Schwartz
                        > Silver Spring, MD
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                        any
                        > > > know
                        > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                        presurve
                        > > > wood
                        > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                        a
                        > > > few
                        > > > years back in Ohio.
                        > > >
                        > > > James Cunningham
                        > > >
                        > > >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                        So did I... 30 years ago. It is strong stuff. James Cunningham If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                          So did I... 30 years ago.  It is strong stuff.
                           
                          James Cunningham
                           
                          If this does not bring tears to your eyes I will miss my guess. Retired USAF
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject

                          AND, even if you do find some creosote somewhere, be extremely cautious, I have a cousin that used it a few years back and had a violent skin reaction that caused him to spend some time in the hospital.  It was a terrible, burning rash.
                           
                          I'd suggest trying something less caustic.
                           
                          Laura Lea
                          Barony of Darkwater
                          Kingdom of Trimaris
                           
                          :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                           
                          In a message dated 12/2/2004 8:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mcnutt@... writes:

                          I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                          Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                          Master Will
                          http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                          New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                          know
                          if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                          wood
                          like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                          few
                          years back in Ohio.

                          James Cunningham

                          >
                          >
                          > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                          symposium
                          > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                          edited
                          > >by Sean McGrail.
                          >
                          > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                          >
                          > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                          might
                          > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                          >
                          > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                          >
                          > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                          beginning to
                          > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                          >
                          > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                          not
                          > familiar with.
                          >
                          > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Colin
                          >
                          > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                          > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                          >
                          >
                          > Albion Works
                          > Furniture and Accessories
                          > For the Medievalist!
                          > http://www.albionworks.net
                          > http://www.albionworks.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                        • Dragano Abbruciati
                          Yup. I think you re right. I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last 70s - early 80s). They don t let us play with any of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yup.  I think you're right.  I seem to remember them banning that and DDT at about the same time (last '70s - early '80s).  They don't let us play with any of the good stuff anymore.
                             
                            Dragano

                            Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:
                            I think it got banned.  I THINK it had the same stuff in it as Agent
                            Orange, but I'm not sure.  I haven't seen it in 20 years.

                            Master Will
                            http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:58 PM
                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                            New subject:  For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal.  Does any
                            know
                            if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to presurve
                            wood
                            like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.  It was outlawed a
                            few
                            years back in Ohio.

                            James Cunningham

                            >
                            >
                            > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                            symposium
                            > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion /
                            edited
                            > >by Sean McGrail.
                            >
                            > I've been trying to locate a copy for years.  Send me one, willya?
                            >
                            > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it
                            might
                            > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                            >
                            > >  Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                            >
                            > This is excellent.  My favorite one-volume recommendation for
                            beginning to
                            > intermediate woodworkers.  I learned joinery from this book.
                            >
                            > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP.  The others I'm
                            not
                            > familiar with.
                            >
                            > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Colin
                            >
                            > p.s.  You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                            > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                            >
                            >
                            > Albion Works
                            > Furniture and Accessories
                            > For the Medievalist!
                            > http://www.albionworks.net
                            > http://www.albionworks.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




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                          • Dragano Abbruciati
                            Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated. Dragano Tim Bray wrote: Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote? Why
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                               
                              Dragano

                              Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                              Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                              want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                              There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                              known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                              thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                              not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                              chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                              suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                              them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                              which never completely dissipates.)

                              (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                              plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                              including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                              and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                              wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                              It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                              to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                              creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                              in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                              treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                              groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                              Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                              mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                              Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                              ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                              you an idea of how toxic it is...

                              Regards,
                              Tim Bray
                              Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                              creosoting sites


                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




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                            • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                              That would be no in Kentucky also they decided it was not enviormentally friendly You might try to contact someone at either your local phone co or power co in
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                That would be no in Kentucky also

                                they decided it was not enviormentally friendly

                                You might try to contact someone at either your
                                local phone co or power co in their department
                                that deals with new poles and see what they are
                                using now.


                                --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:

                                > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO
                                > like Connal. Does any know
                                > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it
                                > is used to presurve wood
                                > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts.
                                > It was outlawed a few
                                > years back in Ohio.
                                >
                                > James Cunningham
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers
                                > presented to a symposium
                                > > >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with
                                > edited discussion / edited
                                > > >by Sean McGrail.
                                > >
                                > > I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send
                                > me one, willya?
                                > >
                                > > I've seen a review of it, though (probably on
                                > Ranulf's site), and it might
                                > > not be as cool as the title makes it sound.
                                > >
                                > > > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                                > >
                                > > This is excellent. My favorite one-volume
                                > recommendation for beginning to
                                > > intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from
                                > this book.
                                > >
                                > > Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's
                                > OOP. The others I'm not
                                > > familiar with.
                                > >
                                > > Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are
                                > terrific.
                                > >
                                > > Cheers,
                                > > Colin
                                > >
                                > > p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated
                                > bibliography:
                                > > http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Albion Works
                                > > Furniture and Accessories
                                > > For the Medievalist!
                                > > http://www.albionworks.net
                                > > http://www.albionworks.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >


                                =====
                                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                                Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                ' Dare Something Worthy '



                                __________________________________
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                              • C N Schwartz
                                I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar applied liberally. ... From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@foryou.net] Sent:
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                  I did exactly that for my own fence posts, minus the kerosene. Roofing tar
                                  applied liberally.









                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:14 PM
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject



                                  I am building a fence to hold cows. I hate building fence. I want to make
                                  the posts last as long as possible. If I cannot find any I will use
                                  poormans creosote( a mixture of kerosene and roofing tar). It is absorbed
                                  into the wood to stop moisture movment and has anti fungal properties.

                                  James Cunningham


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <kjworz@...>
                                  To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>; <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:10 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject


                                  >
                                  > It appears that creosote is hard to attain in any region.
                                  >
                                  > But, all this begs the question... What do you need it for? Maybe some of
                                  the esteemed members of this community know of a suitable alternative.
                                  Maybe even a better alternative.
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > -Chris Schwartz
                                  > Silver Spring, MD
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > New subject: For those who live outside of OHIO like Connal. Does
                                  any
                                  > > > know
                                  > > > if you can still buy a produce call cerosote(sp) it is used to
                                  presurve
                                  > > > wood
                                  > > > like rail road ties and power poles and fence posts. It was outlawed
                                  a
                                  > > > few
                                  > > > years back in Ohio.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > James Cunningham
                                  > > >
                                  > > >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                  Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff they call navel stores that
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                    Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                     
                                    What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                     
                                    James Cunningham
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                    Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                     
                                    Dragano

                                    Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                    Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                    want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                    There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                    known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                    thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                    not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                    chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                    suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                    them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                    which never completely dissipates.)

                                    (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                    plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                    including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                    and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                    wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                    It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                    to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                    creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                    in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                    treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                    groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                    Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                    mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                    Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                    ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                    you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                    Regards,
                                    Tim Bray
                                    Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                    creosoting sites


                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                         http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                    The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                  • Dan
                                    I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels. James Cunningham wrote: Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! What is the difference
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 2, 2004
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                                      I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                      James Cunningham wrote:

                                      Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                      What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The stuff
                                      they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                    • julian wilson
                                      Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father s Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                        Just following the end of World War 2, n the Essex,U.K. Seaside Town of Southend-on-Sea where my Father's Company owned a boatyard [mainly to maintain his small fleet of pleasure craft and "inshore trawlers"], the Boatyard was right next door to the Gas Works of the Southend Gas, Light, & Coke Company Ltd, the local heating- and cooking- fuel manufacturer for thee whole of the Borough.
                                        Our Boatyard Manager used to buy the Tar, and Pitch, and Creosote he needed direct from the Gas Works Manager next door - but it was a "bring-your-own-container" kind of Deal, which meant the Yard's Apprentices trundling the hand barrows round from the yard to the Gas Works with the empty drums, and then a much harder journey back with the full ones. The Gas Works also produced and sold "Black Varnish".
                                        Buying direct from the Plant as we did, we got those products at "rock-bottom" prices. I have always understood that all of them were by-products of the process of producing coal-gas.
                                         
                                        Dan <teffendar@...> wrote:
                                        I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.

                                        James Cunningham wrote:

                                        Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!

                                        What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff
                                        they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?




                                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                        Yours in service,
                                        Julian Wilson,
                                        late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                        Historian and Master Artisan to
                                        "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                        in "olde" Jersey


                                        Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.

                                      • julian wilson
                                        I wouldn t store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns. Surely you mean Naval ?
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                          Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                          "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                          Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                           
                                          What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                           
                                          James Cunningham
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                          Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                           
                                          Dragano

                                          Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                          Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                          want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                          There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                          known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                          thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                          not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                          chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                          suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                          them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                          which never completely dissipates.)

                                          (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                          plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                          including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                          and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                          wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                          It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                          to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                          creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                          in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                          treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                          groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                          Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                          mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                          Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                          ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                          you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                          Regards,
                                          Tim Bray
                                          Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                          creosoting sites


                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                          The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                          Yours in service,
                                          Julian Wilson,
                                          late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                          Historian and Master Artisan to
                                          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                          in "olde" Jersey


                                          ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                        • Tim Bray
                                          ... Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas. IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                            What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. 

                                            Julian is right, creosote is made from coal tar - which in turn is a by-product from making coal gas.  IOW it comes from coal, whereas the pine tar comes from ... wait for it... pine trees!

                                            Pine tar is less toxic/carcinogenic than coal tar, although it probably still has some of the cancer-causing agents in it.

                                            Cheers,
                                            Colin


                                            Albion Works
                                            Furniture and Accessories
                                            For the Medievalist!
                                          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                            They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote! James Cunningham ... stuff
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                              James Cunningham

                                              >
                                              > I believe that creosote is derived from fossil fuels.
                                              >
                                              > James Cunningham wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Ok now I will turn this into a historical question!
                                              >
                                              > What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar. The
                                              stuff
                                              > they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                              Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly? Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter! OK ! I did mean Naval stores. James
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Which is more fun navel jelly or naval jelly?  Computers are not the only ones who make a big deal out of one letter!   OK !  I did mean Naval stores.
                                                 
                                                James Cunningham
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:39 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                                I wouldn't store pitch, or tar, or creosote in my navel, thank you. Be far too hard to clean out, quite apart from the skin burns.
                                                Surely you mean "Naval"?  :-)>

                                                "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                                Ok now I will turn this into a historical question! 
                                                 
                                                What is the difference between creosote and pine pitch/pine tar.  The stuff they call navel stores that whas used on the rigging of sailing ships?
                                                 
                                                James Cunningham
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:33 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                                Wow, Tim, you just made me feel very under-educated.
                                                 
                                                Dragano

                                                Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
                                                Why on earth do you want to expose yourself to creosote?  Why would you
                                                want to accumulate something that is illegal for you to use?

                                                There are reasons why this stuff is restricted (not banned, btw).  It is a
                                                known human carcinogen - contact with it causes skin cancer in humans.  (It
                                                thus is part of a rather select list of substances "known" to cause cancer,
                                                not merely "suspected" of it.)  In addition, it is composed largely of
                                                chemical compounds that are themselves either known (benzopyrene) or
                                                suspected carcinogens, and some of these are volatile - meaning you inhale
                                                them when you work with the stuff.  (Hence its characteristic strong odor,
                                                which never completely dissipates.)

                                                (Note to Will: Not the same constituents as Agent Orange.  That was 2,4-D
                                                plus 2,4,5-TP, a potent mixture of herbicides which also contained dioxin,
                                                including 2,3,7,8-TCDD, an extremely nasty compound - toxic, carcinogenic,
                                                and teratogenic.  Dioxin is a contaminant in the other major
                                                wood-preservation chemical, Pentachlorophenol.)

                                                It's no good for amateur use anyway, because to be really effective, it has
                                                to be applied hot and under pressure, to force it into the wood.   The
                                                creosoting process generates a mixture of creosote and water (from moisture
                                                in the wood) that is a hazardous waste and requires expensive
                                                treatment.  Past practices in the creosoting industry caused major
                                                groundwater contamination at some of the worst toxic-waste sites on the
                                                Superfund list.  Although the stuff is thick and gooey, it is surprisingly
                                                mobile in soil and in groundwater; and persistent and difficult to remove.

                                                Its only redeeming feature is that wood treated with it lasts longer in
                                                ground or water contact than any other treatment method.  That should give
                                                you an idea of how toxic it is...

                                                Regards,
                                                Tim Bray
                                                Environmental Engineer & Hydrogeologist; worked on one of those Superfund
                                                creosoting sites


                                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/




                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!

                                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/





                                                Yours in service,
                                                Julian Wilson,
                                                late-medieval Re-enactor.
                                                Historian and Master Artisan to
                                                "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                                                in "olde" Jersey


                                                ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

                                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/



                                              • Rob Lewis
                                                And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes..... So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 3, 2004
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                                                  And here in the desert we have Creosote bushes.....
                                                   
                                                  So I did a search to find out what the US Government considers Creosote (from http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ):
                                                   
                                                  What is creosote?

                                                  Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

                                                  Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

                                                  Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.



                                                  From: James W. Pratt, Jr. [mailto:cunning@...]
                                                  Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:34 PM
                                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] new subject Creosote

                                                  They call the stuff that gets in a wood burning chimney creosote!

                                                  James Cunningham

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