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Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing question.. "modern"?

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  • msgilliandurham
    ... exotics, ... mesquite). Good morning to the list! Some questions, please re: bottle stoppers: Am I correct in thinking that cork, used to stopper bottles,
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...> wrote:
      > Okay.. I have been turning bottle-stoppers like a madman. Mostly
      exotics,
      > but some domestic woods.. (exotics: purple heart, padauk, coco-bolo,
      > zebrawood, domestics: redwood burl, birs-eye maple, osage orange,
      mesquite).

      Good morning to the list! Some questions, please re: bottle stoppers:

      Am I correct in thinking that cork, used to stopper bottles, is
      either post 1600 or just barely in use pre-1600? (I know it was used
      for shoe soles in the Renaissance, seems odd not to use it for
      stoppers, but maybe there was only the technology for sheets, not
      plugs)

      What domestic woods do folks use for this, and which ones were used
      pre-1600? (or more specifically, Elizabethan England)

      And since I don't have access to a lathe, can anyone here recommend a
      way to make period-accurate stoppers without one? whittling? carving
      down mundane dowel rods? using something other than wood (OT, I
      know)? Commissioning them <g>?

      Thanks in advance, Gillian Durham
    • maeryk
      ... used ... a ... carving ... Well, the ones I am making are anything _BUT_ period.. they are chrome and neoprene plugs that the turned bauble threads onto..
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "msgilliandurham"
        <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...>
        >
        > Good morning to the list! Some questions, please re: bottle
        stoppers:
        >
        > Am I correct in thinking that cork, used to stopper bottles, is
        > either post 1600 or just barely in use pre-1600? (I know it was
        used
        > for shoe soles in the Renaissance, seems odd not to use it for
        > stoppers, but maybe there was only the technology for sheets, not
        > plugs)
        >
        > What domestic woods do folks use for this, and which ones were used
        > pre-1600? (or more specifically, Elizabethan England)
        >
        > And since I don't have access to a lathe, can anyone here recommend
        a
        > way to make period-accurate stoppers without one? whittling?
        carving
        > down mundane dowel rods? using something other than wood (OT, I
        > know)? Commissioning them <g>?

        Well, the ones I am making are anything _BUT_ period.. they are
        chrome and neoprene plugs that the turned bauble threads onto..
        purely gee-gaws, and hopefully will sell for enough to allow me to
        get a treadle lathe to do some "period" stuff at events.

        As far as bottle stoppers in period.. we know even at the Sutton-Hoo
        (I think it was suttonhoo?) dig, they had 6 inch high turned
        maple "jugs" for lack of a better word, which had silver starlike
        decorations around the neck.. I would certainly assume they turned
        the stoppers out of wood as well.

        Leather washers on a ceramic taper would work as well.. (think a
        grolsch bottle, and leather instead of the rubber disk).

        But I see _no_ reason to assume they didnt just turn a plug with a
        knob or something on top that was close to the neck size of the
        vessel!

        as far as what you are trying to do.. heck.. thread a hefty screw
        into one end, cut the head off, and grip it with a drill chuck, and
        hand-taper it with sandpaper or something.. (while it is spinning).

        One of the cool things about lathe work is you cut your stock, work
        on it, and finish it all in one shot.. (well, at least the smaller
        stuff).. gives the weekend woodworker some cool projects that dont
        drag on for months!

        I'll post some pics of the stoppers I'm making.. I know they arent
        period, but god..the COLORS in some of this wood are AMAZING!

        (and why I'm going for the high polish.. it makes the grain reach-in
        deep).

        Back on the finishing.. I'm going to do like, 20 coats of Johnsons
        paste wax, applied with a french pad and see how that works.
        Definately put a mirror shine on a piece of black walnut I was
        playing with once.

        Maeryk

        >
        > Thanks in advance, Gillian Durham
      • alex_grofics
        ... ... ... It would probably work, but it certainly isn t period. The Grolsch bottles use a so called Lightning Stopper , which was invented
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...> wrote:
          >
          <snip!>
          > Leather washers on a ceramic taper would work as well.. (think a
          > grolsch bottle, and leather instead of the rubber disk).
          >
          <snip!>
          > Maeryk

          It would probably work, but it certainly isn't period. The Grolsch
          bottles use a so called 'Lightning Stopper', which was invented and
          patented by Charles De Quillfeldt in 1893. As far as I know, it
          doesn't stop lightning, though.

          More info: http://www.worldlynx.net/sodasandbeers/closures.htm

          And before you ask: I don't know the history of stoppers. The mention
          of the Grolsch bottles just made me curious and this was the result
          of a quick Google search.

          Alex
        • Joseph Hayes
          ... If you have a drill press, you can make or buy a jig to turn small items. Here s a commercial example: http://www.toolcenter.com/Vertilathe.html Once you
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
            > And since I don't have access to a lathe, can anyone here recommend a
            > way to make period-accurate stoppers without one?

            If you have a drill press, you can make or buy a jig to turn small
            items. Here's a commercial example:
            http://www.toolcenter.com/Vertilathe.html

            Once you have that, you can make these wood/cork stoppers:
            http://www.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/product_family.asp?family%5Fid=1140&gift=False&mscssid=C119E658F21A4C3A98401CBB55679C5E

            Ulrich




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          • muck
            You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to GET a treadle lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or maybe at least plans? ;)
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
              You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to "GET" a treadle
              lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or maybe
              at least plans? ;)

              Please let me know,
              YIS
              Phillip the Skeptic
            • C N Schwartz
              Well, the 19th century had a bunch of treadle tools made out of quite elegant iron casting. Barnes is a company that spring to mind. Is Velocipede a company
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
                Well, the 19th century had a bunch of treadle tools made out of quite
                elegant iron casting. Barnes is a company that spring to mind. Is
                Velocipede a company or a treadle trademark? Anyway, these types are
                available in various states of completeness. Often you can mate a small
                tread lathe with a Singer sewing machine base to make a Franken-Lathe.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: muck [mailto:muck@...]
                Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 7:01 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Bottle stopper questions WAS
                finishing question.. "modern"?





                You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to "GET" a treadle
                lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or maybe
                at least plans? ;)

                Please let me know,
                YIS
                Phillip the Skeptic




                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • maf@gleichen.ca
                One sold on ebay rescently for I think $325, it was a few weeks ago and a little rich for my blood. Of course a hand crank lathe went for $10 about a month
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
                  One sold on ebay rescently for I think $325, it was a few weeks ago and a
                  little rich for my blood. Of course a hand crank lathe went for $10 about a
                  month ago.


                  Cered

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "C N Schwartz" <kjworz@...>
                  To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 8:52 PM
                  Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing
                  question.. "modern"?


                  >
                  > Well, the 19th century had a bunch of treadle tools made out of quite
                  > elegant iron casting. Barnes is a company that spring to mind. Is
                  > Velocipede a company or a treadle trademark? Anyway, these types are
                  > available in various states of completeness. Often you can mate a small
                  > tread lathe with a Singer sewing machine base to make a Franken-Lathe.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: muck [mailto:muck@...]
                  > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 7:01 PM
                  > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Bottle stopper questions WAS
                  > finishing question.. "modern"?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to "GET" a treadle
                  > lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or maybe
                  > at least plans? ;)
                  >
                  > Please let me know,
                  > YIS
                  > Phillip the Skeptic
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Arthur Slaughter
                  I have not found a place to get a readymade treadle lathe but Roy Underhills books have good plans for one. Finn ...
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 8, 2004
                    I have not found a place to get a readymade treadle lathe but Roy Underhills
                    books have good plans for one.
                    Finn

                    >From: muck <muck@...>
                    >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing
                    >question.. "modern"?
                    >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:00:44 -0700 (MST)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to "GET" a treadle
                    >lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or maybe
                    >at least plans? ;)
                    >
                    >Please let me know,
                    >YIS
                    >Phillip the Skeptic
                    >

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                  • kjworz@comcast.net
                    Meh. Roy s books aren t very specific when it comes to details on making a treadle lathe. There was an anrticle years ago in a Woodworking magazine where he
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                      Meh.  Roy's books aren't very specific when it comes to details on making a treadle lathe.  There was an anrticle years ago in a Woodworking magazine where he was more specific on the parts list.  The bearing parts are cheap and available but until you know what they are they are hard to put your hands on.
                       
                      There was a small discussion I listened in on at Pennsic.  Our own Haraldy Bassi was a participant.  The  jist:  Treadle lathes are a bit complicated.  Compared to spring-pole type lathes at least.  You can make a spring pole lathe with a fence with 2 posts, 2 bolts, scrap lumber and the 'spring pole'.  The pole can be anything, and has been.  Traditionally a sapling.  But you can make a small spring pole lathe that comes apart and fits in a briefcase with a bungie cord for the spring if you are looking for a travelling version.  It doesn't have to be unweildy or large to work.  It might not be wholly period me thinks, but neither is a treadly lathe, methinks. 
                       
                      And you've all seen that MedievaSawdust member with a bow-lathe that looks like it can fit in a lunchbox....
                       
                      --
                      -Chris Schwartz
                      Silver Spring, MD
                       
                      -------------- Original message --------------

                      >
                      > I have not found a place to get a readymade treadle lathe but Roy Underhills
                      > books have good plans for one.
                      > Finn
                      >
                      > >From: muck
                      > >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > >To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing
                      > >question.. "modern"?
                      > >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:00:44 -0700 (MST)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • maeryk
                      ... maybe ... Well, I have an old crappy tube lathe that I bought for about 20 bucks, and the motor promptly burned out on. (I immediately went and bought a
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, muck <muck@f...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > You mentioned you hoped to make enough money to "GET" a treadle
                        > lathe....is there somewhere you can buy them premade? Or a kit? Or
                        maybe
                        > at least plans? ;)
                        >
                        > Please let me know,
                        > YIS
                        > Phillip the Skeptic

                        Well, I have an old crappy tube lathe that I bought for about 20
                        bucks, and the motor promptly burned out on. (I immediately went and
                        bought a cast iron swing head, variable speed.. so its in the corner
                        collecting dust!)

                        But.. I have been mulling with the concept of turning it into a
                        treadle lathe, (probalby a short one.. I can cut and weld it to
                        whatever length I want).

                        What I need to find is a decent flywheel.. I have been thinking about
                        beefing up an old SInger and if I can find one in the junk or
                        something will let you know how it works!

                        I'm also considering just building a clad flywheel, as the one
                        website whose link I forget (but he's a reenactor) has done..

                        I dont have the skill or the patience to muck about with the bearings
                        and headstock/tailstock and such, so it's a good thing I already have
                        them!

                        I know..it wont be a "period" lathe by any means.. but I'm not nearly
                        as worried about that as I am about at least getting out there and
                        showign people how most of their feast gear was made. (And why when I
                        sell a bowl it costs 25 bucks, rather than 2.00 with the "made in
                        pakistan on a gang lathe by people who consider 4.00 a day to be a
                        good wage" sticker).

                        Maeryk
                      • Arthur Slaughter
                        Gotta agree on the difference in handmade at home and cranked out in some far awway country. A lot of my income comes from selling my turnedware and educating
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                          Gotta agree on the difference in handmade at home and cranked out in some
                          far awway country. A lot of my income comes from selling my turnedware and
                          educating the buying public is always a bit of a challenge.
                          Finn>
                          >I know..it wont be a "period" lathe by any means.. but I'm not nearly
                          >as worried about that as I am about at least getting out there and
                          >showign people how most of their feast gear was made. (And why when I
                          >sell a bowl it costs 25 bucks, rather than 2.00 with the "made in
                          >pakistan on a gang lathe by people who consider 4.00 a day to be a
                          >good wage" sticker).
                          >
                          >Maeryk
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

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                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                          Wine bottle corks were not invented until 1600? James Cunningham ... From: msgilliandurham To:
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                            Wine bottle corks were not invented until 1600?

                            James Cunningham

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "msgilliandurham" <msgilliandurham@...>
                            To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 11:50 AM
                            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing question..
                            "modern"?


                            >
                            >
                            > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...> wrote:
                            > > Okay.. I have been turning bottle-stoppers like a madman. Mostly
                            > exotics,
                            > > but some domestic woods.. (exotics: purple heart, padauk, coco-bolo,
                            > > zebrawood, domestics: redwood burl, birs-eye maple, osage orange,
                            > mesquite).
                            >
                            > Good morning to the list! Some questions, please re: bottle stoppers:
                            >
                            > Am I correct in thinking that cork, used to stopper bottles, is
                            > either post 1600 or just barely in use pre-1600? (I know it was used
                            > for shoe soles in the Renaissance, seems odd not to use it for
                            > stoppers, but maybe there was only the technology for sheets, not
                            > plugs)
                            >
                            > What domestic woods do folks use for this, and which ones were used
                            > pre-1600? (or more specifically, Elizabethan England)
                            >
                            > And since I don't have access to a lathe, can anyone here recommend a
                            > way to make period-accurate stoppers without one? whittling? carving
                            > down mundane dowel rods? using something other than wood (OT, I
                            > know)? Commissioning them <g>?
                            >
                            > Thanks in advance, Gillian Durham
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • maeryk
                            ... According to a web page I just found, (I lost the link.. search cork history on Google) cork was known and used for sealing in Greece and Rome.. YMMV.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                              <cunning@f...> wrote:
                              > Wine bottle corks were not invented until 1600?
                              >
                              > James Cunningham

                              According to a web page I just found, (I lost the link.. search cork
                              history on Google) cork was known and used for sealing in Greece and
                              Rome..

                              YMMV.

                              Maeryk

                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "msgilliandurham" <msgilliandurham@y...>
                              > To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 11:50 AM
                              > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Bottle stopper questions WAS finishing
                              question..
                              > "modern"?
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > Okay.. I have been turning bottle-stoppers like a madman. Mostly
                              > > exotics,
                              > > > but some domestic woods.. (exotics: purple heart, padauk, coco-
                              bolo,
                              > > > zebrawood, domestics: redwood burl, birs-eye maple, osage
                              orange,
                              > > mesquite).
                              > >
                              > > Good morning to the list! Some questions, please re: bottle
                              stoppers:
                              > >
                              > > Am I correct in thinking that cork, used to stopper bottles, is
                              > > either post 1600 or just barely in use pre-1600? (I know it was
                              used
                              > > for shoe soles in the Renaissance, seems odd not to use it for
                              > > stoppers, but maybe there was only the technology for sheets, not
                              > > plugs)
                              > >
                              > > What domestic woods do folks use for this, and which ones were
                              used
                              > > pre-1600? (or more specifically, Elizabethan England)
                              > >
                              > > And since I don't have access to a lathe, can anyone here
                              recommend a
                              > > way to make period-accurate stoppers without one? whittling?
                              carving
                              > > down mundane dowel rods? using something other than wood (OT, I
                              > > know)? Commissioning them <g>?
                              > >
                              > > Thanks in advance, Gillian Durham
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                            • msgilliandurham
                              Well, huh. I could have sworn there was a discussion of this topic either here or over on Authentic SCA, but I can t find it now. At any rate, I did as Maeryk
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                                Well, huh. I could have sworn there was a discussion of this topic
                                either here or over on Authentic SCA, but I can't find it now.

                                At any rate, I did as Maeryk suggested, and found a number of sites,
                                listed below. Most of them indicated that cork stoppers were used in
                                ancient times (Greek and Roman). In medieval times wooden stoppers
                                were used, but cork came back after SCA period (frequently
                                attributed to Dom Pérignon)

                                http://www.howstuffworks.com/question550.htm
                                http://wine.about.com/library/weekly/aa081098.htm
                                Expanko (a cork flooring company)
                                (http://www.expanko.com/CORK/products-CORK-history.html)

                                However, one site (http://www.vino.com/explore/article.asp?
                                AID=139&CID=9&Cat=1) claims that

                                "Cork had been used in Roman times, and plays a vital part in
                                keeping in the bubbles [in sparkling wines]. The use of cork in
                                England is evident in Shakespeare; the French were using wooden
                                bungs wrapped in hemp, which would barely provide a seal, never mind
                                holding in the pressure of a sparkling wine."

                                And on the Mary Rose website
                                (http://www.maryrose.org/life/barber1.htm) it describes a chest
                                found in the barber surgeon's cabin as "The chest contained a whole
                                medical kit, rows of lidded, turned wooden canisters and ceramic
                                medicine jars, still corked". You can't really tell from the
                                pictures (http://www.maryrose.org/explore/barber/medicine.htm,
                                http://www.maryrose.org/explore/evidence/images/bscontents.jpg)
                                whether the stoppers are cork or wood -- or perhaps I should say
                                cork or other, non-cork wood, since of course cork is a kind of wood!

                                Guess I need to do some more digging ...

                                Gillian Durham

                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                                > <cunning@f...> wrote:
                                > > Wine bottle corks were not invented until 1600?
                                > >
                                > > James Cunningham
                                >
                                > According to a web page I just found, (I lost the link.. search
                                cork
                                > history on Google) cork was known and used for sealing in Greece
                                and
                                > Rome..
                                >
                                > YMMV.
                                >
                                > Maeryk
                                >
                              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                                By the end you will have enough for a CA issue! The uses of cork and non cork from begining to end of period. James Cunningham (frequently attributed to Dom
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 9, 2004
                                  By the end you will have enough for a CA issue! The uses of cork and non
                                  cork from begining to end of period.

                                  James Cunningham

                                  (frequently
                                  attributed to Dom Pérignon)

                                  http://www.howstuffworks.com/question550.htm
                                  http://wine.about.com/library/weekly/aa081098.htm
                                  Expanko (a cork flooring company)
                                  (http://www.expanko.com/CORK/products-CORK-history.html)

                                  However, one site (http://www.vino.com/explore/article.asp?
                                  AID=139&CID=9&Cat=1) claims that

                                  "Cork had been used in Roman times, and plays a vital part in
                                  keeping in the bubbles [in sparkling wines]. The use of cork in
                                  England is evident in Shakespeare; the French were using wooden
                                  bungs wrapped in hemp, which would barely provide a seal, never mind
                                  holding in the pressure of a sparkling wine."

                                  And on the Mary Rose website
                                  (http://www.maryrose.org/life/barber1.htm) it describes a chest
                                  found in the barber surgeon's cabin as "The chest contained a whole
                                  medical kit, rows of lidded, turned wooden canisters and ceramic
                                  medicine jars, still corked". You can't really tell from the
                                  pictures (http://www.maryrose.org/explore/barber/medicine.htm,
                                  http://www.maryrose.org/explore/evidence/images/bscontents.jpg)
                                  whether the stoppers are cork or wood -- or perhaps I should say
                                  cork or other, non-cork wood, since of course cork is a kind of wood!

                                  Guess I need to do some more digging ...

                                  Gillian Durham

                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "maeryk" <maeryk@f...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                                  > <cunning@f...> wrote:
                                  > > Wine bottle corks were not invented until 1600?
                                  > >
                                  > > James Cunningham
                                  >
                                  > According to a web page I just found, (I lost the link.. search
                                  cork
                                  > history on Google) cork was known and used for sealing in Greece
                                  and
                                  > Rome..
                                  >
                                  > YMMV.
                                  >
                                  > Maeryk
                                  >







                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Rob Lewis
                                  Just looking through the on-line catalog for the library accross the way from my office, has anyone heard of the following books, and are the much use?
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
                                    Just looking through the on-line catalog for the library accross the way from my office, has anyone heard of the following books, and are the much use?
                                     
                                     
                                    Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited by Sean McGrail.
                                     Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                                     
                                     The illustrated encyclopedia of woodworking handtools, instruments, & devices : containing a full description of the tools used by carpenters, joiners, and cabinet makers, with many examples of tools used by other woodworkers such as, woodsmen, sawyers, coach makers, wheelwrights, shipwrights, wainwrights, coopers, turners, pattern makers, and whittlers / written and illustrated by Graham Blackburn.
                                     
                                     Tools : working wood in eighteenth-century America / by James M. Gaynor and Nancy L. Hagedorn.
                                     
                                     Dictionary of tools used in the woodworking and allied trades, c. 1700-1970 / R. A. Salaman ; foreword by Joseph Needham.   (this one is in the referance section only)
                                     
                                     Woodworking tools, 1600-1900 / Peter C. Welsh.  (this one is in the special collections)
                                     
                                     Carpentry for beginners; how to use tools, basic joints, workshop practice, designs for things to make, edited by Charles H. Hayward. 
                                     
                                     
                                     And I will be checking out the 2 Underhill books they have tonight.
                                     
                                     
                                    I just noticed that they have a french one on lathes in the microfiche section:
                                     
                                     L'art de tourner, ou de faire en perfection toutes sortes d'ouvrages au tour [microform] : .. ouvrage tres curieux, et tres necessaire à ceux qui s'exercent au tour / composé en François & en Latin en faveur des etrangers, & enrichi de prés de quatre-vingt planches par Charles Plumier.
                                     
                                    And they also have copies of Diderots' encyclopedia, looks like one of the english translations may be available for checkout.
                                  • C N Schwartz
                                    Charles Hayward is WONDERFUL. Cabinetmaking for beginners tells you everything you need to know is one small volume. It is almost an apprenticeship in
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
                                      Charles Hayward is WONDERFUL.  Cabinetmaking for beginners tells you everything you need to know is one small volume.  It is almost an apprenticeship in itself.  I wish that was the first book I got when I became interested in the hobby.  It is a treatise on handtool joinery.
                                       
                                      Woodworking techniques before 1500 sounds very intriguing.
                                       
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Rob Lewis [mailto:pvtlewis@...]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:51 PM
                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] book question

                                      Just looking through the on-line catalog for the library accross the way from my office, has anyone heard of the following books, and are the much use?
                                       
                                       
                                      Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited by Sean McGrail.
                                       Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                                       
                                       The illustrated encyclopedia of woodworking handtools, instruments, & devices : containing a full description of the tools used by carpenters, joiners, and cabinet makers, with many examples of tools used by other woodworkers such as, woodsmen, sawyers, coach makers, wheelwrights, shipwrights, wainwrights, coopers, turners, pattern makers, and whittlers / written and illustrated by Graham Blackburn.
                                       
                                       Tools : working wood in eighteenth-century America / by James M. Gaynor and Nancy L. Hagedorn.
                                       
                                       Dictionary of tools used in the woodworking and allied trades, c. 1700-1970 / R. A. Salaman ; foreword by Joseph Needham.   (this one is in the referance section only)
                                       
                                       Woodworking tools, 1600-1900 / Peter C. Welsh.  (this one is in the special collections)
                                       
                                       Carpentry for beginners; how to use tools, basic joints, workshop practice, designs for things to make, edited by Charles H. Hayward. 
                                       
                                       
                                       And I will be checking out the 2 Underhill books they have tonight.
                                       
                                       
                                      I just noticed that they have a french one on lathes in the microfiche section:
                                       
                                       L'art de tourner, ou de faire en perfection toutes sortes d'ouvrages au tour [microform] : .. ouvrage tres curieux, et tres necessaire à ceux qui s'exercent au tour / composé en François & en Latin en faveur des etrangers, & enrichi de prés de quatre-vingt planches par Charles Plumier.
                                       
                                      And they also have copies of Diderots' encyclopedia, looks like one of the english translations may be available for checkout.


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                                    • James Winkler
                                      Wow... some neat sounding stuff... the Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 really grabs my attention... do you know if this is an available book... or
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
                                         Wow... some neat sounding stuff...  the "Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500" really grabs my attention...  do you know if this is an available book... or if copies can be made???
                                         
                                        Chas.
                                         
                                        Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited by Sean McGrail.
                                         Tage Frid teaches woodworking.
                                         
                                         The illustrated encyclopedia of woodworking handtools, instruments, & devices : containing a full description of the tools used by carpenters, joiners, and cabinet makers, with many examples of tools used by other woodworkers such as, woodsmen, sawyers, coach makers, wheelwrights, shipwrights, wainwrights, coopers, turners, pattern makers, and whittlers / written and illustrated by Graham Blackburn.
                                         
                                         Tools : working wood in eighteenth-century America / by James M. Gaynor and Nancy L. Hagedorn.
                                         
                                         Dictionary of tools used in the woodworking and allied trades, c. 1700-1970 / R. A. Salaman ; foreword by Joseph Needham.   (this one is in the referance section only)
                                         
                                         Woodworking tools, 1600-1900 / Peter C. Welsh.  (this one is in the special collections)
                                         
                                         Carpentry for beginners; how to use tools, basic joints, workshop practice, designs for things to make, edited by Charles H. Hayward. 
                                         
                                         
                                      • Tim Bray
                                        ... I ve been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya? I ve seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf s site), and it might not be as
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 30, 2004
                                          >Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium
                                          >at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited
                                          >by Sean McGrail.

                                          I've been trying to locate a copy for years. Send me one, willya?

                                          I've seen a review of it, though (probably on Ranulf's site), and it might
                                          not be as cool as the title makes it sound.

                                          > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.

                                          This is excellent. My favorite one-volume recommendation for beginning to
                                          intermediate woodworkers. I learned joinery from this book.

                                          Salaman I have, but don't refer to it much - it's OOP. The others I'm not
                                          familiar with.

                                          Roy Underhill is a living god, and his books are terrific.

                                          Cheers,
                                          Colin

                                          p.s. You should go look at Ranulf's annotated bibliography:
                                          http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/books.htm


                                          Albion Works
                                          Furniture and Accessories
                                          For the Medievalist!
                                          http://www.albionworks.net
                                          http://www.albionworks.com
                                        • Gary Halstead
                                          See comments, below. Colin already posted a link to my bibliographies/reviews - so I won t repeat that. The best general work on tool history is Goodman s
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                            See comments, below. Colin already posted a link to my
                                            bibliographies/reviews - so I won't repeat that. The best general work
                                            on tool history is Goodman's _The History of Woodworking Tools_ which is
                                            pretty easy to find.

                                            Ranulf

                                            Rob Lewis wrote:
                                            > Just looking through the on-line catalog for the library accross the way
                                            > from my office, has anyone heard of the following books, and are the much
                                            > use?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a symposium at
                                            > Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited by
                                            > Sean McGrail.

                                            A collection of papers covering woodworking from the Stone Age to 1500.
                                            There's some good information in there, but you'll have to dig for it.
                                            Probably of more use to the in-depth researcher, but if you can read it
                                            in the library - why not?

                                            > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.

                                            Never read this one.

                                            > The illustrated encyclopedia of woodworking handtools, instruments, &
                                            > devices : containing a full description of the tools used by carpenters,
                                            > joiners, and cabinet makers, with many examples of tools used by other
                                            > woodworkers such as, woodsmen, sawyers, coach makers, wheelwrights,
                                            > shipwrights, wainwrights, coopers, turners, pattern makers, and whittlers /
                                            > written and illustrated by Graham Blackburn.

                                            Mostly 18th and 19th century, but good for general background since
                                            woodworking tools don't change that much over the centuries. I'm a
                                            great fan of Blackburn's writing and drawing.

                                            > Tools : working wood in eighteenth-century America / by James M. Gaynor and
                                            > Nancy L. Hagedorn.

                                            An exhibition catalog of (surprise!) 18th century tools. Nothing
                                            period, but still cool if you're interested in woodworking history or
                                            old tools.

                                            > Dictionary of tools used in the woodworking and allied trades, c. 1700-1970
                                            > / R. A. Salaman ; foreword by Joseph Needham. (this one is in the
                                            > referance section only)

                                            Useful for reference, but I wouldn't want to try and read through it.

                                            > Woodworking tools, 1600-1900 / Peter C. Welsh. (this one is in the special
                                            > collections)

                                            Short paper on tools, a couple of period tidbits, but nothing important.
                                            Don't know why this is in special collections since you can find a
                                            used copy for about $10.

                                            > Carpentry for beginners; how to use tools, basic joints, workshop practice,
                                            > designs for things to make, edited by Charles H. Hayward.

                                            Haven't read this one.
                                          • Bill McNutt
                                            I prefer Ancient Carpenter s Tools. Master Will http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood ... From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@adelphia.net] Sent: Wednesday, December
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                              I prefer Ancient Carpenter's Tools.

                                              Master Will
                                              http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Gary Halstead [mailto:ghalstead@...]
                                              Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:06 AM
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] book question


                                              See comments, below. Colin already posted a link to my
                                              bibliographies/reviews - so I won't repeat that. The best general work
                                              on tool history is Goodman's _The History of Woodworking Tools_ which is

                                              pretty easy to find.

                                              Ranulf

                                              Rob Lewis wrote:
                                              > Just looking through the on-line catalog for the library accross the
                                              way
                                              > from my office, has anyone heard of the following books, and are the
                                              much
                                              > use?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Woodworking techniques before A.D. 1500 : papers presented to a
                                              symposium at
                                              > Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion / edited
                                              by
                                              > Sean McGrail.

                                              A collection of papers covering woodworking from the Stone Age to 1500.
                                              There's some good information in there, but you'll have to dig for it.

                                              Probably of more use to the in-depth researcher, but if you can read it
                                              in the library - why not?

                                              > Tage Frid teaches woodworking.

                                              Never read this one.

                                              > The illustrated encyclopedia of woodworking handtools, instruments, &
                                              > devices : containing a full description of the tools used by
                                              carpenters,
                                              > joiners, and cabinet makers, with many examples of tools used by other
                                              > woodworkers such as, woodsmen, sawyers, coach makers, wheelwrights,
                                              > shipwrights, wainwrights, coopers, turners, pattern makers, and
                                              whittlers /
                                              > written and illustrated by Graham Blackburn.

                                              Mostly 18th and 19th century, but good for general background since
                                              woodworking tools don't change that much over the centuries. I'm a
                                              great fan of Blackburn's writing and drawing.

                                              > Tools : working wood in eighteenth-century America / by James M.
                                              Gaynor and
                                              > Nancy L. Hagedorn.

                                              An exhibition catalog of (surprise!) 18th century tools. Nothing
                                              period, but still cool if you're interested in woodworking history or
                                              old tools.

                                              > Dictionary of tools used in the woodworking and allied trades, c.
                                              1700-1970
                                              > / R. A. Salaman ; foreword by Joseph Needham. (this one is in the
                                              > referance section only)

                                              Useful for reference, but I wouldn't want to try and read through it.

                                              > Woodworking tools, 1600-1900 / Peter C. Welsh. (this one is in the
                                              special
                                              > collections)

                                              Short paper on tools, a couple of period tidbits, but nothing important.

                                              Don't know why this is in special collections since you can find a
                                              used copy for about $10.

                                              > Carpentry for beginners; how to use tools, basic joints, workshop
                                              practice,
                                              > designs for things to make, edited by Charles H. Hayward.

                                              Haven't read this one.




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