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RE: [medievalsawdust] Re: Treadle lathe

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  • Avery
    ... I think DaVinci s, in Codex Atlanticus, is a treadle design, but don t quote me on that. It s an interesting design. Has some really good ideas in it and
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 10, 2002
      > Does anyone know when treadle spining-wheels became
      > common?

      I think DaVinci's, in Codex Atlanticus, is a treadle design, but don't quote
      me on that. It's an interesting design. Has some really good ideas in it
      and some really bad ones. You get the impression that Leo didn't spend a
      lot of time spinning himself.

      Avery
    • Joseph Hayes
      ... It is. You can see a copy here: http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stool_documentation_3.gif UvL
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 10, 2002
        --- Avery <avery@...> wrote:
        > I think DaVinci's, in Codex Atlanticus, is a treadle design, but
        > don't quote me on that.

        It is. You can see a copy here:
        http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stool_documentation_3.gif

        UvL


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      • Ted Kocot
        ... Actually, I was thinking of his spinning wheel, which is clear documentation of the bobin/flyer design development, rather than the wool wheel style with
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 10, 2002
          >> I think DaVinci's, in Codex Atlanticus, is a treadle design, but don't
          >> quote me on that.
          >
          > It is. You can see a copy here:
          > http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stool_documentation_3.gif

          Actually, I was thinking of his spinning wheel, which is clear
          documentation of the bobin/flyer design development, rather than the wool
          wheel style with its lone spindle.

          Is the lathe in Atlanticus as well?

          Speaking of which, does anyone know if reprints of the various DaVinci
          codecies are available out there anywhere?

          Avery
        • Joseph Hayes
          ... Oops, sorry! I saw the subject and must have skipped over the message body. The spinning wheel I know of, appears to be a hand-cranked machine (check
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 10, 2002
            --- Ted Kocot <avery@...> wrote:
            > Actually, I was thinking of his spinning wheel,

            Oops, sorry! I saw the subject and must have skipped over the message
            body. The "spinning wheel" I know of, appears to be a hand-cranked
            machine (check out:
            http://www.ihot.com/~pkarsten/PhyllisFiber/CottonTutorial/LnrdoSpin.gif).
            It get lots of attention because of the introduction of the flyer.

            > Is the lathe in Atlanticus as well?

            I'm 99% sure it is. I'l have to do some digging to confirm.

            Ulrich


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          • Avery
            ... Yep, that s the one I was thinking of. ... I have read that, while DaVinci often gets credit for the flyer, it predated him. Wish I could remember where.
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 11, 2002
              >Oops, sorry! I saw the subject and must have skipped over the message
              >body. The "spinning wheel" I know of, appears to be a hand-cranked
              >machine (check out:
              >http://www.ihot.com/~pkarsten/PhyllisFiber/CottonTutorial/LnrdoSpin.gif).

              Yep, that's the one I was thinking of.

              >It get lots of attention because of the introduction of the flyer.

              I have read that, while DaVinci often gets credit for the flyer, it predated
              him. Wish I could remember where.

              What is really different about this design is the pair of gears in the back
              that moves the flier in and out, thereby automating the little series of
              hooks you see on most wheels. I don't know if I've ever seen a wheel that
              did that, though.

              Avery
            • Joseph Hayes
              ... Hi all, I ve been doing some surfing trying to find pictures of a period treadle spining-wheel. I foound a document titled, Wool and Wool-Based Textiles
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 11, 2002
                --- Avery <avery@...> wrote:
                > Does anyone know when treadle spining-wheels became common?

                Hi all,

                I've been doing some surfing trying to find pictures of a period
                treadle spining-wheel. I foound a document titled, "Wool and
                Wool-Based Textiles in the West European Economy, c.800 - 1500:
                Innovations and Traditions in Textile Products, Technology, and
                Industrial Organisation." It's at
                http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/ecipa/archive/UT-ECIPA-MUNRO-00-05.pdf

                In the section on Saxony spinning wheels, it says, "Formerly dated to
                c.1530 and attributed to Meister J�rgen of Brunswick, Lower Saxony,
                this new spinning wheel has since been found, almost fully evolved, in
                late fifteenth-century drawings (in Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch of
                Waldburg-Wolfegg, Lake Constance, c.1475-80; and in Leonardo da Vinci's
                Codice Atlantico, c.1490)." (Avery, there's your da Vinci info.)

                If my translation is correct, "Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch" was
                published as "Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook."

                Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.

                Thanks,
                Ulrich


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              • Tom Rettie
                ... Zounds, you guys must be reading my mind. When I saw Avery s post I went straight to the catalog for Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch (the original toured
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 11, 2002
                  >Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                  >Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                  >us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.

                  Zounds, you guys must be reading my mind. When I saw Avery's post I went
                  straight to the catalog for Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch (the original
                  toured when it had been disassembled for cleaning and rebinding, with a
                  stop in DC. You could even buy leather-bound reproductions, only $1980 a
                  copy).

                  http://www.his.com/~tom/Images/wheel.jpg

                  It is not a treadle wheel however. Nor are the few Elizabethan ones I've
                  seen illustrated.

                  Still lookin'

                  Tom R.


                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Tom Rettie tom@...
                  http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
                • Ted Kocot
                  ... Ooooo. Ooooo. I have a copy of that! Work flew me to Austria last year so that by day I could see a flourecently lit lab and by night I could see the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 12, 2002
                    > If my translation is correct, "Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch" was
                    > published as "Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook."
                    >
                    > Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                    > Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                    > us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.

                    Ooooo. Ooooo. I have a copy of that! Work flew me to Austria last year
                    so that by day I could see a flourecently lit lab and by night I could see
                    the outsides of lots of cool things that were locked tight at night.

                    The London layover was my idea. ;) Anyhow, I picked up a copy at the
                    Victoria and Albert. I'll try and check it out tonight.

                    Avery
                  • Brian D. Murphy
                    ... Just a side note. If you re interested in a copy of this one, there is a seller on eBay listing them for about half the list price:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 12, 2002
                      Ulrich wrote:

                      >
                      > If my translation is correct, "Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch" was
                      > published as "Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook."
                      >
                      > Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                      > Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                      > us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.

                      Just a side note. If you're interested in a copy of this one, there is a
                      seller on eBay listing them for about half the list price:

                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1979132699

                      I grabbed one a while back and found several useful illustrations in it.
                      There is one particularly nice drawing that includes several pavilions, for
                      example.

                      This housebook is different than the Mendel Housebook (Das Hausbuch der
                      Mendelschen Zwölfbrüderstiftung zu Nürnberg), isn't it? Tom has an image of
                      a turner from this source on his web site. I'd love to have a copy of this
                      one too, but there are several scans from it online at:

                      http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/m_inh.htm

                      ...simple drawings, but some great illustrations of hand tools in use.

                      Bran

                      Bran Du ap Dafydd
                      http://www.stcarol.org
                    • Dan Baker
                      Hmmm, weren t we talking about a saw like the one in the picture in the Mendel Housebook at the below site. According to the website this would date it about
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
                        Hmmm, weren't we talking about a saw like the one in the picture in the
                        Mendel Housebook at the below site. According to the website this would
                        date it about 1425

                        http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/011.jpg

                        --
                        YIS,

                        Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                        Privateer to the Midrealm

                        Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                        ...Take time to dance in the rain...




                        >From: "Brian D. Murphy" <bmurphy@...>
                        >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: Treadle lathe (attn Tom Rettie)
                        >Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0600
                        >
                        >Ulrich wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > If my translation is correct, "Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch" was
                        > > published as "Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook."
                        > >
                        > > Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                        > > Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                        > > us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.
                        >
                        >Just a side note. If you're interested in a copy of this one, there is a
                        >seller on eBay listing them for about half the list price:
                        >
                        >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1979132699
                        >
                        >I grabbed one a while back and found several useful illustrations in it.
                        >There is one particularly nice drawing that includes several pavilions, for
                        >example.
                        >
                        >This housebook is different than the Mendel Housebook (Das Hausbuch der
                        >Mendelschen Zw�lfbr�derstiftung zu N�rnberg), isn't it? Tom has an image
                        >of
                        >a turner from this source on his web site. I'd love to have a copy of this
                        >one too, but there are several scans from it online at:
                        >
                        >http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/m_inh.htm
                        >
                        >...simple drawings, but some great illustrations of hand tools in use.
                        >
                        >Bran
                        >
                        >Bran Du ap Dafydd
                        >http://www.stcarol.org
                        >
                        >


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                      • Brian D. Murphy
                        ... From: Dan Baker To: Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust]
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dan Baker" <Capten_Rhys@...>
                          To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 7:13 AM
                          Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: Treadle lathe (attn Tom Rettie)


                          > Hmmm, weren't we talking about a saw like the one in the picture in the
                          > Mendel Housebook at the below site. According to the website this would
                          > date it about 1425
                          >
                          > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/011.jpg
                          >
                          > --
                          > YIS,
                          >
                          > Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                          > Privateer to the Midrealm
                          >
                          > Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
                          > ...Take time to dance in the rain...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: "Brian D. Murphy" <bmurphy@...>
                          > >Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >Subject: [medievalsawdust] Re: Treadle lathe (attn Tom Rettie)
                          > >Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0600
                          > >
                          > >Ulrich wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > If my translation is correct, "Das Mittelalterliche Hausbuch" was
                          > > > published as "Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook."
                          > > >
                          > > > Tom, I've seen your name on several web pages recommending this book.
                          > > > Do you have a copy? If so, can you look up the spinning wheel and let
                          > > > us know what it looks like? Even better if you can scan and post.
                          > >
                          > >Just a side note. If you're interested in a copy of this one, there is a
                          > >seller on eBay listing them for about half the list price:
                          > >
                          > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1979132699
                          > >
                          > >I grabbed one a while back and found several useful illustrations in it.
                          > >There is one particularly nice drawing that includes several pavilions,
                          for
                          > >example.
                          > >
                          > >This housebook is different than the Mendel Housebook (Das Hausbuch der
                          > >Mendelschen Zwölfbrüderstiftung zu Nürnberg), isn't it? Tom has an image
                          > >of
                          > >a turner from this source on his web site. I'd love to have a copy of
                          this
                          > >one too, but there are several scans from it online at:
                          > >
                          > >http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/m_inh.htm
                          > >
                          > >...simple drawings, but some great illustrations of hand tools in use.
                          > >
                          > >Bran
                          > >
                          > >Bran Du ap Dafydd
                          > >http://www.stcarol.org
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                        • Brian D. Murphy
                          Yes we were talking about turning/bow saws. In fact, it was my research on bow saws that led me to those images :) The one I m working on is a different
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
                            Yes we were talking about turning/bow saws. In fact, it was my research on
                            bow saws that led me to those images :) The one I'm working on is a
                            different shape, but I'll probably be making several, and somewhere in there
                            I intend to try one that more closely conforms to the hausbuch
                            illustrations.

                            Oh, and sorry about that blank post a minute ago. Still working on my first
                            cup of coffee.

                            Bran

                            Bran Du ap Dafydd
                            http://www.stcarol.org



                            > Hmmm, weren't we talking about a saw like the one in the picture in the
                            > Mendel Housebook at the below site. According to the website this would
                            > date it about 1425
                            >
                            > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/011.jpg
                            >
                            > --
                            > YIS,
                            >
                            > Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
                            > Privateer to the Midrealm
                            >
                          • Joseph Hayes
                            ... In this same document, I also found a reference to an early wheel with flyer in a drawing by Lucas van Leyden . Actually, it s a woodcut and it s another
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
                              <von_landstuhl@...> wrote:
                              > I've been doing some surfing trying to find pictures of a period
                              > treadle spining-wheel. I foound a document titled, "Wool and
                              > Wool-Based Textiles in the West European Economy, c.800 - 1500:
                              > Innovations and Traditions in Textile Products, Technology, and
                              > Industrial Organisation." It's at
                              > http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/ecipa/archive/UT-ECIPA-MUNRO-00-
                              > 05.pdf

                              In this same document, I also found a reference to an early wheel with
                              flyer in "a drawing by Lucas van Leyden". Actually, it's a woodcut and
                              it's another hand-cranked wheel. I've posted a copy here:
                              http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/stuff/Lucas_van_Leyden.jpg

                              It's title is "The Young Woman at the Spinning Wheel" and it dates to
                              1513. It comes from the book "Pieter Bruegel the Elder and Lucas van
                              Leyden" by Jacques Lavalleye.

                              Ulrich


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