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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?

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  • gmcdavid@comcast.net
    ... Don t know about lathes, but Lee Valley sells tenon cutters for drills:
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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      > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round

      > tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
      > you hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who
      > made windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
      > something like that?

      Don't know about lathes, but Lee Valley sells "tenon cutters" for drills:

      http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=42299&category=1,180,42288,45539&ccurrency=1&SID=

      Woodcraft carries them as well, so you could see them in a store.

      I think the old "hollow augers", for use in a bit brace, would do the same thing.

      A cheaper alternative, for use by hand, is a dowel rounder:

      http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11880

      http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2734

      I have a couple of these which work OK.   An old "rounder plane" is essentially the same thing if you can find one.

      Glenn McDavid
      gmcdavid@...
      http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid

       

       

       

    • MacGregorsCairn@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/1/2004 8:27:03 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Greetings! The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane and you can find information on
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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        In a message dated 7/1/2004 8:27:03 AM Central Daylight Time, von_landstuhl@... writes:

        The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
        on TV....

        Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
        tenons of a specific size?  Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
        you hold the wood and the cutter goes around.  It was used by a guy who
        made windsor chairs.  Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
        something like that?

        Thanks,
        Ulrich


        Greetings!

        The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane and you can find information on them in Roy Underhill's Woodwright series of books. The stail engine is generally for making larger diameter round stock like rake or pitchfork handles while a tine cutter might be of more use for you. The tine cutter is a section of pipe with a smaller diameter on the cutting edge (allowing the stock to fall through after cutting.) Another solution is to use a dowel sizing plate, beating the stock through a progressively set of smaller holes until you get to the size you want.

        Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections. If the tenons are smaller than the rail itself, then perhaps a stail engine is what you want. If you are very lucky, you might find one in an antique shop ( I have been looking for one for a couple of years so far with no luck whatsoever), but more than likely, you'll have to make one, and they only fit a small range of sizes (give or take about 1/8 inch diameter) but really only cut well at the small end of the range. You'll still have to do a bit of trimming at the inside edge of the tenon to smooth things out.

        Anybody have any sites on stail engines? I haven't searched the web yet.
        Hopefully more to come...

        Lochlainn
      • Joseph Hayes
        ... Thanks for the tip. I ve seen rounder planes, but all were hand cranked. ... Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel. ;) Ulrich
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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          > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

          Thanks for the tip. I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
          cranked.

          > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
          > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

          Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel. ;)

          Ulrich




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        • MacGregorsCairn@aol.com
          An addendum to my post: None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow your lathe down,
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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            An addendum to my post:

            None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow your lathe down, and even then, I wouldn't.

            Lochlainn
          • Don Bowen
            ... Check Lee Valley. They have round tendon cutters in many sizes. The smaller (
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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              At 7/1/2004, you wrote:
              Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
              tenons of a specific size?  Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
              you hold the wood and the cutter goes around.  It was used by a guy who
              made windsor chairs.  Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
              something like that?

              Check Lee Valley.  They have round tendon cutters in many sizes. The smaller (<1")can be chucked in a 1/4 drill.  Others sell the same tool but at slight higher prices.

              Don Bowen
              Awl Knotted Up Woodworking
              Valley Center, CA             http://www.braingarage.com
            • gmcdavid@comcast.net
              ... FWIW. http://www.crafts32.fsnet.co.uk/products_rotary_planes.htm claims that their product can be used on a slow lathe. However, I have not seen it, or
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                > None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi

                > is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow
                > your lathe down, and even then, I wouldn't

                FWIW. http://www.crafts32.fsnet.co.uk/products_rotary_planes.htm claims that their product can be used on a slow lathe.  However, I have not seen it, or any independent review.

                Glenn McDavid
                gmcdavid@...
                http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid

                 

                 

                 

              • rikwolff@aol.com
                The one thing I have completed satisfactorily in my brand-new avocation: a triangle stool. General advice: 1.) Don t skimp on the hardness or the diameter of
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                  The one thing I have completed satisfactorily in my brand-new avocation: a triangle stool. General advice:

                  1.) Don't skimp on the hardness or the diameter of the legs; no less than 2 inches, if you ask me. The depth of the round mortices for the horizontal pieces is the only source of lateral stability (fighting against sway and what I can only describe as corkscrewing: you attempt a swivel, and the poor joints bend to allow it; next thing you know, CRUNCH).

                  2.) If you still have instability (like I did, because I didn't drill the mortices deep enough or whittle the tenons long enough), try this: you know the two little vertical rails between the legs (total six)? Instead of making them vertical, move the top holes together slightly and the bottom holes apart slightly, and situate those rails slightly towards an A frame, such as you'd see in a span of a radio tower. This is likely to pull the piece out of period, but it makes the stool rock-solid.

                  Reijnier VerPlanck.
                • James Winkler
                  Of course.. one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive pattern follower ... or copy set. You could make consistant round tenons that
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                    Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                     
                    Chas.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                    > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                    Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                    cranked.

                    > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                    > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                    Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                    Ulrich



                               
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                  • maeryk
                    Harbor Freight sells them, as do the upscale woodworking supply catalogs. They suggest you use them for making rustic log furniture .. theres actually a
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                      Harbor Freight sells them, as do the upscale woodworking supply catalogs.

                      They suggest you use them for making "rustic log furniture".. theres
                      actually a couple of variants.. most of the ones I have seen are designed
                      for hand drills.

                      You can also make your own.. its basically an easier version of a
                      threadbox.. Underhill shows how to make one in one of the books, I believe.

                      Maeryk

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Joseph Hayes" <von_landstuhl@...>
                      To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:25 AM
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                      >
                      > The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
                      > on TV....
                      >
                      > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
                      > tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
                      > you hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who
                      > made windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
                      > something like that?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Ulrich
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • maeryk
                      Not at all! In one of the shop tips in either Fine Woodworking, or Woodworkers Joural or the like a few months ago, they described how to make a good, cheap,
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                        Not at all! In one of the shop tips in either Fine Woodworking, or Woodworkers Joural or the like a few months ago, they described how to make a good, cheap, follower.
                         
                        The clamped a piece of wood to the bedrails of the lathe, to give a flat bearing surface. They clamped the template to that.
                        They basically made a sled out of a piece or two of 2x4 that rode on the flat bearing surface, and cut a point (the "follower") on the bottom, and bolted a cutter piece (the drawing made it look like a snapped off chisel head..) above it at the same depth.
                         
                        Cheap, easy, and as far as I could see, relatively successful.
                         
                        I havent tried it yet.. I havent even had hte guts to turn a bowl yet.. but my spindle work is getting REAL good. (and people are begging me to stop giving them free form candleholders)
                         
                        Maeryk
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:07 PM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?

                        Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                         
                        Chas.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                        Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                        > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                        Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                        cranked.

                        > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                        > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                        Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                        Ulrich



                                   
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                      • The Luegges
                        Got any more??? Friends or books, the price is right. Besides, most of my friends are weirding out lately. Must be the heat... Oengus. ... From: Conal
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                          Got any more???  Friends or books, the price is right.  Besides, most of my friends are weirding out lately. Must be the heat...
                           
                          Oengus.
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: 6/30/2004 5:30:26 PM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] triangle stool

                          > "Masterpieces: Making Furniture From Paintings."
                          >
                          > Ulrich
                          >

                          Neat book!

                          Got one myself from a friend ( he paid $3 for it )

                          =====
                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                          Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                             Aude Aliquid Dignum
                               ' Dare Something Worthy '


                                     
                        • Steve Vaught
                          Hi, I believe Rockler sells a set of rounding type planes that would create what you are looking for. They are usually found on the same page as the gustav
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                            Hi,
                             
                            I believe Rockler sells a set of rounding type planes that would create what you are looking for.  They are usually found on the same page as the gustav stickley furniture books.  I think they attach to a drill.
                             
                            Steve

                            James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
                            Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                             
                            Chas.
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                            > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                            Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                            cranked.

                            > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                            > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                            Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                            Ulrich



                                       
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                          • Haraldr Bassi
                            eBay has been known to have something like that, for hand augers, not lathes. You wouldn t want to be holding a piece of wood when it decides to start spinning
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                              eBay has been known to have something like that, for hand augers, not
                              lathes. You wouldn't want to be holding a piece of wood when it decides to
                              start spinning at 110rpm (slowest I know of for a lathe). Instead, clamp
                              the wood in your bench vise, grab your hollow auger and your brace, and
                              you are done in a few seconds.

                              Here is my search I use for eBay:
                              http://search.ebay.com/tenon-cutter-spoke-pointer_W0QQcombineZyQQfromZR14QQfromZR9QQsatitleZQ28Q22tenonQ20cutterQ22Q2cQ20spokeQ20pointerQ22Q29QQsocolumnlayoutZ3QQsosortpropertyZ1

                              This is a sample hit that might be what you are looking for, but it really
                              looks more like a threading auger than just a hollow tenon cutter.

                              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=6105058400&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

                              There is also no reason you can't practice until you can make consistent
                              tenons on the lathe using your standard lathe tools (scraper) and a
                              caliper.

                              For the people doing three legged stools, what was the state of the woods
                              they were using? Did you use the same wood for the seat as the legs as for
                              the braces?

                              Did you bake the braces before sizing and inserting them into the legs?

                              By dry heating the wood a bit, it will dry and shrink slightly, expanding
                              when you have it in the joint, locking the tenon in tighter.

                              Haraldr

                              Joseph Hayes said:
                              >
                              > The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
                              on TV....
                              >
                              > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
                              tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but you
                              hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who made
                              windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells something
                              like that?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Ulrich
                              >


                              --
                              Haraldr Bassi, Frosted Hills, East
                              haraldr at drakkar org
                            • Tom Rettie
                              ... If you re using turner s joints (round tenons), you can t go much less than 2 inches on the posts without producing a very weak joint. The smaller the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 2, 2004
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                                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, rikwolff@a... wrote:

                                > 1.) Don't skimp on the hardness or the diameter of the legs;
                                > no less than 2 inches, if you ask me.

                                If you're using turner's joints (round tenons), you can't go much
                                less than 2 inches on the posts without producing a very weak joint.
                                The smaller the diameter of the post, the closer together the
                                mortises are and the less wood there is in between them to hold
                                things together.

                                An alternative is to use a square tenon on one rail and a round one
                                on the ajoining rail. The round one goes through the square one,
                                locking it in place. It lets you do through tenons (common in
                                period) and also leaves a stronger post.

                                > The depth of the round mortices for the horizontal pieces is
                                > the only source of lateral stability (fighting against sway
                                > and what I can only describe as corkscrewing: you attempt a
                                > swivel, and the poor joints bend to allow it; next thing
                                > you know, CRUNCH).

                                When using turner's joints for the top seat rails, I always make the
                                tenons long enough that they intersect, and miter them so the ends
                                joint together snug. You can stagger the lower rails so they don't
                                intersect, or they only partially intersect and lock each other in
                                place.

                                However you do your tenons, plan on there being some tension in the
                                horizontal rails. Even with a drill press, you probably won't bore
                                the mortises precisely on every post. This tension can help hold
                                everything together though; I've got stools with no glue or pegs,
                                they're rock solid on just the internal tension of the rails and
                                posts.

                                Regards,

                                Fin
                                (Tom R.)
                              • mahee of acre
                                I have also seen one where your wood must be cut square, It goes in a square socket that you while pushing the wood through a box with blades in it. This lets
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 2, 2004
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                                  I have also seen one where your wood must be cut square, It goes in
                                  a square socket that you while pushing the wood through a box with
                                  blades in it. This lets you cut longer tennons if needed. But, it
                                  does not go on a lathe.

                                  your servant,
                                  mahee
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