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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?

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  • B.S.R.Lee
    Lee Valley make a couple of different round tennon cutters, but they are for use in a hand held electric drill or with a brace & bit. Using something like this
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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      Lee Valley make a couple of different round tennon cutters, but they are
      for use in a hand held electric drill or with a brace & bit. Using
      something like this in a powered lathe is an invite for it to pick you up
      and mop the workshop with your body! Really! At least if it jams in a hand
      drill you just let go & maybe get a rap on the knuckles.

      There was a discussion on this a while ago - I think it was in the
      Australian "Woodwork Forums" - the operator only had to patch a hole in the
      roof IIRC as he let go in time :-0 He was using an 'old' tennon cutter
      intended for hand use to cut tennons on wheel spokes with a brace & bit setup.

      regards
      Brusi

      At 11:25 PM 7/1/04, you wrote:

      >The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
      >on TV....
      >
      >Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
      >tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
      >you hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who
      >made windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
      >something like that?
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Ulrich
    • gmcdavid@comcast.net
      ... Don t know about lathes, but Lee Valley sells tenon cutters for drills:
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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        > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round

        > tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
        > you hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who
        > made windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
        > something like that?

        Don't know about lathes, but Lee Valley sells "tenon cutters" for drills:

        http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=42299&category=1,180,42288,45539&ccurrency=1&SID=

        Woodcraft carries them as well, so you could see them in a store.

        I think the old "hollow augers", for use in a bit brace, would do the same thing.

        A cheaper alternative, for use by hand, is a dowel rounder:

        http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=11880

        http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2734

        I have a couple of these which work OK.   An old "rounder plane" is essentially the same thing if you can find one.

        Glenn McDavid
        gmcdavid@...
        http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid

         

         

         

      • MacGregorsCairn@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/1/2004 8:27:03 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Greetings! The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane and you can find information on
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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          In a message dated 7/1/2004 8:27:03 AM Central Daylight Time, von_landstuhl@... writes:

          The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
          on TV....

          Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
          tenons of a specific size?  Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
          you hold the wood and the cutter goes around.  It was used by a guy who
          made windsor chairs.  Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
          something like that?

          Thanks,
          Ulrich


          Greetings!

          The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane and you can find information on them in Roy Underhill's Woodwright series of books. The stail engine is generally for making larger diameter round stock like rake or pitchfork handles while a tine cutter might be of more use for you. The tine cutter is a section of pipe with a smaller diameter on the cutting edge (allowing the stock to fall through after cutting.) Another solution is to use a dowel sizing plate, beating the stock through a progressively set of smaller holes until you get to the size you want.

          Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections. If the tenons are smaller than the rail itself, then perhaps a stail engine is what you want. If you are very lucky, you might find one in an antique shop ( I have been looking for one for a couple of years so far with no luck whatsoever), but more than likely, you'll have to make one, and they only fit a small range of sizes (give or take about 1/8 inch diameter) but really only cut well at the small end of the range. You'll still have to do a bit of trimming at the inside edge of the tenon to smooth things out.

          Anybody have any sites on stail engines? I haven't searched the web yet.
          Hopefully more to come...

          Lochlainn
        • Joseph Hayes
          ... Thanks for the tip. I ve seen rounder planes, but all were hand cranked. ... Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel. ;) Ulrich
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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            > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

            Thanks for the tip. I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
            cranked.

            > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
            > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

            Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel. ;)

            Ulrich




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          • MacGregorsCairn@aol.com
            An addendum to my post: None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow your lathe down,
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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              An addendum to my post:

              None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow your lathe down, and even then, I wouldn't.

              Lochlainn
            • Don Bowen
              ... Check Lee Valley. They have round tendon cutters in many sizes. The smaller (
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                At 7/1/2004, you wrote:
                Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
                tenons of a specific size?  Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
                you hold the wood and the cutter goes around.  It was used by a guy who
                made windsor chairs.  Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
                something like that?

                Check Lee Valley.  They have round tendon cutters in many sizes. The smaller (<1")can be chucked in a 1/4 drill.  Others sell the same tool but at slight higher prices.

                Don Bowen
                Awl Knotted Up Woodworking
                Valley Center, CA             http://www.braingarage.com
              • gmcdavid@comcast.net
                ... FWIW. http://www.crafts32.fsnet.co.uk/products_rotary_planes.htm claims that their product can be used on a slow lathe. However, I have not seen it, or
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                  > None of these solutions would work on a lathe safely... Brusi

                  > is quite right. Unless of course you could REALLY slow
                  > your lathe down, and even then, I wouldn't

                  FWIW. http://www.crafts32.fsnet.co.uk/products_rotary_planes.htm claims that their product can be used on a slow lathe.  However, I have not seen it, or any independent review.

                  Glenn McDavid
                  gmcdavid@...
                  http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid

                   

                   

                   

                • rikwolff@aol.com
                  The one thing I have completed satisfactorily in my brand-new avocation: a triangle stool. General advice: 1.) Don t skimp on the hardness or the diameter of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                    The one thing I have completed satisfactorily in my brand-new avocation: a triangle stool. General advice:

                    1.) Don't skimp on the hardness or the diameter of the legs; no less than 2 inches, if you ask me. The depth of the round mortices for the horizontal pieces is the only source of lateral stability (fighting against sway and what I can only describe as corkscrewing: you attempt a swivel, and the poor joints bend to allow it; next thing you know, CRUNCH).

                    2.) If you still have instability (like I did, because I didn't drill the mortices deep enough or whittle the tenons long enough), try this: you know the two little vertical rails between the legs (total six)? Instead of making them vertical, move the top holes together slightly and the bottom holes apart slightly, and situate those rails slightly towards an A frame, such as you'd see in a span of a radio tower. This is likely to pull the piece out of period, but it makes the stool rock-solid.

                    Reijnier VerPlanck.
                  • James Winkler
                    Of course.. one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive pattern follower ... or copy set. You could make consistant round tenons that
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                      Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                       
                      Chas.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                      > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                      Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                      cranked.

                      > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                      > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                      Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                      Ulrich



                                 
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                    • maeryk
                      Harbor Freight sells them, as do the upscale woodworking supply catalogs. They suggest you use them for making rustic log furniture .. theres actually a
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                        Harbor Freight sells them, as do the upscale woodworking supply catalogs.

                        They suggest you use them for making "rustic log furniture".. theres
                        actually a couple of variants.. most of the ones I have seen are designed
                        for hand drills.

                        You can also make your own.. its basically an easier version of a
                        threadbox.. Underhill shows how to make one in one of the books, I believe.

                        Maeryk

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Joseph Hayes" <von_landstuhl@...>
                        To: <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:25 AM
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                        >
                        > The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
                        > on TV....
                        >
                        > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
                        > tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but
                        > you hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who
                        > made windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells
                        > something like that?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Ulrich
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • maeryk
                        Not at all! In one of the shop tips in either Fine Woodworking, or Woodworkers Joural or the like a few months ago, they described how to make a good, cheap,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                          Not at all! In one of the shop tips in either Fine Woodworking, or Woodworkers Joural or the like a few months ago, they described how to make a good, cheap, follower.
                           
                          The clamped a piece of wood to the bedrails of the lathe, to give a flat bearing surface. They clamped the template to that.
                          They basically made a sled out of a piece or two of 2x4 that rode on the flat bearing surface, and cut a point (the "follower") on the bottom, and bolted a cutter piece (the drawing made it look like a snapped off chisel head..) above it at the same depth.
                           
                          Cheap, easy, and as far as I could see, relatively successful.
                           
                          I havent tried it yet.. I havent even had hte guts to turn a bowl yet.. but my spindle work is getting REAL good. (and people are begging me to stop giving them free form candleholders)
                           
                          Maeryk
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:07 PM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?

                          Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                           
                          Chas.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                          Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                          > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                          Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                          cranked.

                          > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                          > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                          Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                          Ulrich



                                     
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                        • The Luegges
                          Got any more??? Friends or books, the price is right. Besides, most of my friends are weirding out lately. Must be the heat... Oengus. ... From: Conal
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                            Got any more???  Friends or books, the price is right.  Besides, most of my friends are weirding out lately. Must be the heat...
                             
                            Oengus.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: 6/30/2004 5:30:26 PM
                            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] triangle stool

                            > "Masterpieces: Making Furniture From Paintings."
                            >
                            > Ulrich
                            >

                            Neat book!

                            Got one myself from a friend ( he paid $3 for it )

                            =====
                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                            Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                               Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                 ' Dare Something Worthy '


                                       
                          • Steve Vaught
                            Hi, I believe Rockler sells a set of rounding type planes that would create what you are looking for. They are usually found on the same page as the gustav
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                              Hi,
                               
                              I believe Rockler sells a set of rounding type planes that would create what you are looking for.  They are usually found on the same page as the gustav stickley furniture books.  I think they attach to a drill.
                               
                              Steve

                              James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
                              Of course..  one way to point dowels on a lathe is to buy a fairly expensive 'pattern follower'...  or copy set.  You could make consistant round tenons that way...  expensive... by consistant...  then again... ya' could learn to turn REALLY WELL...
                               
                              Chas.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:17 AM
                              Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tool for round tenons?


                              > The tool is called a stail engine or rounder plane

                              Thanks for the tip.  I've seen rounder planes, but all were hand
                              cranked.

                              > Of course these solutions assume that the tenon is the same size as
                              > the rail, producing straight grained round cross sections.

                              Here in Ohio, we call that a dowel.  ;)

                              Ulrich



                                         
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                            • Haraldr Bassi
                              eBay has been known to have something like that, for hand augers, not lathes. You wouldn t want to be holding a piece of wood when it decides to start spinning
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 1, 2004
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                                eBay has been known to have something like that, for hand augers, not
                                lathes. You wouldn't want to be holding a piece of wood when it decides to
                                start spinning at 110rpm (slowest I know of for a lathe). Instead, clamp
                                the wood in your bench vise, grab your hollow auger and your brace, and
                                you are done in a few seconds.

                                Here is my search I use for eBay:
                                http://search.ebay.com/tenon-cutter-spoke-pointer_W0QQcombineZyQQfromZR14QQfromZR9QQsatitleZQ28Q22tenonQ20cutterQ22Q2cQ20spokeQ20pointerQ22Q29QQsocolumnlayoutZ3QQsosortpropertyZ1

                                This is a sample hit that might be what you are looking for, but it really
                                looks more like a threading auger than just a hollow tenon cutter.

                                http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=6105058400&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

                                There is also no reason you can't practice until you can make consistent
                                tenons on the lathe using your standard lathe tools (scraper) and a
                                caliper.

                                For the people doing three legged stools, what was the state of the woods
                                they were using? Did you use the same wood for the seat as the legs as for
                                the braces?

                                Did you bake the braces before sizing and inserting them into the legs?

                                By dry heating the wood a bit, it will dry and shrink slightly, expanding
                                when you have it in the joint, locking the tenon in tighter.

                                Haraldr

                                Joseph Hayes said:
                                >
                                > The stool thread has got me thinking about something I saw a while back
                                on TV....
                                >
                                > Has anyone ever seen a tool you can chuck in you lathe to make round
                                tenons of a specific size? Kinda works like a pencil sharpener, but you
                                hold the wood and the cutter goes around. It was used by a guy who made
                                windsor chairs. Anyone know what it's called and/or who sells something
                                like that?
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Ulrich
                                >


                                --
                                Haraldr Bassi, Frosted Hills, East
                                haraldr at drakkar org
                              • Tom Rettie
                                ... If you re using turner s joints (round tenons), you can t go much less than 2 inches on the posts without producing a very weak joint. The smaller the
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 2, 2004
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                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, rikwolff@a... wrote:

                                  > 1.) Don't skimp on the hardness or the diameter of the legs;
                                  > no less than 2 inches, if you ask me.

                                  If you're using turner's joints (round tenons), you can't go much
                                  less than 2 inches on the posts without producing a very weak joint.
                                  The smaller the diameter of the post, the closer together the
                                  mortises are and the less wood there is in between them to hold
                                  things together.

                                  An alternative is to use a square tenon on one rail and a round one
                                  on the ajoining rail. The round one goes through the square one,
                                  locking it in place. It lets you do through tenons (common in
                                  period) and also leaves a stronger post.

                                  > The depth of the round mortices for the horizontal pieces is
                                  > the only source of lateral stability (fighting against sway
                                  > and what I can only describe as corkscrewing: you attempt a
                                  > swivel, and the poor joints bend to allow it; next thing
                                  > you know, CRUNCH).

                                  When using turner's joints for the top seat rails, I always make the
                                  tenons long enough that they intersect, and miter them so the ends
                                  joint together snug. You can stagger the lower rails so they don't
                                  intersect, or they only partially intersect and lock each other in
                                  place.

                                  However you do your tenons, plan on there being some tension in the
                                  horizontal rails. Even with a drill press, you probably won't bore
                                  the mortises precisely on every post. This tension can help hold
                                  everything together though; I've got stools with no glue or pegs,
                                  they're rock solid on just the internal tension of the rails and
                                  posts.

                                  Regards,

                                  Fin
                                  (Tom R.)
                                • mahee of acre
                                  I have also seen one where your wood must be cut square, It goes in a square socket that you while pushing the wood through a box with blades in it. This lets
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 2, 2004
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                                    I have also seen one where your wood must be cut square, It goes in
                                    a square socket that you while pushing the wood through a box with
                                    blades in it. This lets you cut longer tennons if needed. But, it
                                    does not go on a lathe.

                                    your servant,
                                    mahee
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