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RE: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Holdfasts

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  • Hall, Hayward
    Thanks. I looked at every picture and either missed it or it wasn’t there. I saw some log dogs but no holdfasts. There are however a *lot* of
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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      Thanks.  I looked at every picture and either missed it or it wasn’t there.  I saw some log dogs but no holdfasts.  There are however a *lot* of illustrations of wood being held by pegs and planned, so I think the conclusion I’m coming to is that I could technically force them into period use but it doesn’t appear to be the norm.

       

      Guillaume

       

      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kaisaerpren@...
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 7:31 AM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Holdfasts

       




      Isn't there one in "de re metallica"? on the shaving bench for making fir sticks for lighting fires I think I remember seeing it.

      K

      there is also a very late  illustration of one In Roubo's work



      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <hallh@...> wrote:

      Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast?  I was sure I did but looking back all I see are bench stops.

       

      Guillaume




    • D. Young
      If we are talking about L shaped iron holdfasts, they appear to emerge in the 16th century. Earlier wooden pegs probabl gave rise to iron L shaped holdfasts by
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 5, 2013
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        If we are talking about L shaped iron holdfasts, they appear to emerge in the 16th century.

        Earlier wooden pegs probabl gave rise to iron L shaped holdfasts by accident.....likely something like a long nail stuck in the peg wedged well and the idea emerged by happenstance/accident.

        The holdfast does indeed also assist the rise of the plane....the two are critical partners.   Planes did indeed exist, but the holdfast allowed the board to be held at newer angles and far more securely.....thus then giving rise to the molding plane.    Early planes have springs or crosshairs that are designed for the alignment of the plane on the boards edge....a board was held onto an splayed leg (table leg set in at an angle) so the spring crosshairs on the molding plane allowed the user to keep the plane angled correctly.   Ergo, without the strong hold of a holdfast...the molding plane and molding itself, including a wide range of applications from room molding to panels on furniture and walls would not have been possible.

        Im nerdy like that.... done a lot of research on the transition from Medieval to Colonial woodworking.  

        =Drew



        Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

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        (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
         



        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        From: kaisaerpren@...
        Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 05:30:31 -0700
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Holdfasts

         

        Isn't there one in "de re metallica"? on the shaving bench for making fir sticks for lighting fires I think I remember seeing it.
        K
        there is also a very late  illustration of one In Roubo's work


        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <hallh@...> wrote:

        Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast?  I was sure I did but looking back all I see are bench stops.
         
        Guillaume

      • conradh@...
        ... Oldest evidence I know of is the Stent panel, a 17th Century relief woodcarving of a woodshop scene. There s a nice big holdfast on the floor, under the
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 13, 2013
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          > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
          > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
          >
          > Guillaume
          >

          Oldest evidence I know of is the Stent panel, a 17th Century relief
          woodcarving of a woodshop scene. There's a nice big holdfast on the
          floor, under the planing bench. It doesn't show holes in the bench for it
          (just obviously undersized holes in the legs, which must have been used
          for small pegs to support boards on edge, a la Roubo. (You can see the
          tip of a Roubo-style bench hook in the illustration I'm looking at, too.)

          The guy is planing a really wide board against a stop, though. Any
          holdfast holes are probably hidden by the board--my own would be, by a
          board that wide.

          Ulfhedinn
        • Lynda Fjellman
            ... http://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/03/medieval-and-later-woodworkers.html The pics up here aren t precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 13, 2013
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            > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
            > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
            >
            > Guillaume
            >

            http://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/03/medieval-and-later-woodworkers.html

            The pics up here aren't precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding wood to a bench.  They are all before 1650 as well.
            Ilaria
            pardon if someone already posted this link, I didn't notice.

          • gloerke
            ... http://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/03/medieval-and-later-woodworkers.html The pics up here aren t precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 24, 2013
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              Well, there is a medieval holdfast to see on my blog, but it is very hard to see.


              use this link http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html


              the intarsia by Agustino de Marchi (1468-1477) shows a workbench. On the left side before the legs start is a holdfast in/through the bench. It can be seen as a thin light grey line on the photo. I am sorry I do not have a better quality image of this. (You should go to Italy and take photos of the intarsia for all of us ;)


              Marijn



              ---In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <lyndafjellman@...> wrote:



               
              > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
              > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
              >
              > Guillaume
              >

              http://thomasguild.blogspot.com/2013/03/medieval-and-later-woodworkers.html

              The pics up here aren't precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding wood to a bench.  They are all before 1650 as well.
              Ilaria
              pardon if someone already posted this link, I didn't notice.

            • Sean Powell
              Sorry, but I m confused and not certain if I m looking at the right picture. I m used to holdfasts that look like this:
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 24, 2013
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                Sorry, but I'm confused and not certain if I'm looking at the right picture. I'm used to holdfasts that look like this:
                 
                I see what looks like a wedge on the side of the plank being planed. I see a notch in the end of the bench that would be useful for cutting into the endgrain. I don't see a thin grey line in the photo. What am I missing? Am I even looking at the right photo? Of a man with a long 2-handled plan but only holding the rear handle and a spot near the blade?
                 
                Thanks in advance,
                Sean



                On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM, <gloerke@...> wrote:
                 

                Well, there is a medieval holdfast to see on my blog, but it is very hard to see.


                use this link http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html


                the intarsia by Agustino de Marchi (1468-1477) shows a workbench. On the left side before the legs start is a holdfast in/through the bench. It can be seen as a thin light grey line on the photo. I am sorry I do not have a better quality image of this. (You should go to Italy and take photos of the intarsia for all of us ;)


                Marijn



                ---In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <lyndafjellman@...> wrote:



                 
                > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
                > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
                >
                > Guillaume
                >


                The pics up here aren't precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding wood to a bench.  They are all before 1650 as well.
                Ilaria
                pardon if someone already posted this link, I didn't notice.


              • gloerke
                You are looking at the same thing, it is only a rotten image to look at. I have uploaded 2 photos in the photo section , folder Thpomasguild.they are called
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 25, 2013
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                  You are looking at the same thing, it is only a rotten image to look at.
                  I have uploaded 2 photos in the photo section , folder Thpomasguild.they are called holdfast and img. The first shows you where to look - the holdfast is made red. The second is a high resolution rescan of the part of the image with the holdfast (but still a rotten picture).

                  regards, marijn


                   



                  ---In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <sean14powell@...> wrote:

                  Sorry, but I'm confused and not certain if I'm looking at the right picture. I'm used to holdfasts that look like this:
                   
                  I see what looks like a wedge on the side of the plank being planed. I see a notch in the end of the bench that would be useful for cutting into the endgrain. I don't see a thin grey line in the photo. What am I missing? Am I even looking at the right photo? Of a man with a long 2-handled plan but only holding the rear handle and a spot near the blade?
                   
                  Thanks in advance,
                  Sean



                  On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM, <gloerke@...> wrote:
                   

                  Well, there is a medieval holdfast to see on my blog, but it is very hard to see.


                  use this link http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html


                  the intarsia by Agustino de Marchi (1468-1477) shows a workbench. On the left side before the legs start is a holdfast in/through the bench. It can be seen as a thin light grey line on the photo. I am sorry I do not have a better quality image of this. (You should go to Italy and take photos of the intarsia for all of us ;)


                  Marijn



                  ---In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <lyndafjellman@...> wrote:



                   
                  > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
                  > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
                  >
                  > Guillaume
                  >


                  The pics up here aren't precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding wood to a bench.  They are all before 1650 as well.
                  Ilaria
                  pardon if someone already posted this link, I didn't notice.


                • Sean Powell
                  Wow, nope. Thanks for pointing it out but I can t see anything there that is useful. The light grey line looks like an extension of the beam in the background
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 25, 2013
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                    Wow, nope. Thanks for pointing it out but I can't see anything there that is useful. The light grey line looks like an extension of the beam in the background and ends where it runs into the floor. I never would have guessed it for a hold-fast.
                     
                    Thanks!
                    Sean

                    On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM, <gloerke@...> wrote:
                     

                    You are looking at the same thing, it is only a rotten image to look at.
                    I have uploaded 2 photos in the photo section , folder Thpomasguild.they are called holdfast and img. The first shows you where to look - the holdfast is made red. The second is a high resolution rescan of the part of the image with the holdfast (but still a rotten picture).

                    regards, marijn

                  • Hall, Hayward
                    Thanks. I think with the few random late and near post-period examples we can say they were in use even though they were not overly illustrated. Gerald
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 25, 2013
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                      Thanks.  I think with the few random late and near post-period examples we can say they were in use even though they were not overly illustrated.  Gerald suggested an interesting idea  while we were discussing it in that we are looking for it in woodworking pictures of planning/smoothing/jointing operations and not finding it, while in reality the holdfast is really better for things like holding down a fence for rebating or other operations unrelated to the task illustrated per se.  In fact there are a host of small items a woodworker would need that are rarely illustrated.

                       

                      That’s my story, anyway…

                       

                      Guillaume

                       

                      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gloerke@...
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 1:33 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] RE: Holdfasts

                       




                      Well, there is a medieval holdfast to see on my blog, but it is very hard to see.

                       

                      use this link http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2012/12/the-medieval-toolchest-plane-part-15.html

                       

                      the intarsia by Agustino de Marchi (1468-1477) shows a workbench. On the left side before the legs start is a holdfast in/through the bench. It can be seen as a thin light grey line on the photo. I am sorry I do not have a better quality image of this. (You should go to Italy and take photos of the intarsia for all of us ;)

                       

                      Marijn



                      ---In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <lyndafjellman@...> wrote:

                       

                       

                       

                      > Does anyone have an illustration of a medieval holdfast? I was sure I did
                      > but looking back all I see are bench stops.
                      >
                      > Guillaume
                      >

                       

                       

                      The pics up here aren't precisely holdfasts, but they are methods of holding wood to a bench.  They are all before 1650 as well.

                      Ilaria

                      pardon if someone already posted this link, I didn't notice.

                       




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