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Re: [MedievalSawdust] RE: boxes

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  • Jerry Harder
    I just make my own on my Mastermyr// nail jig but you can try this: Drill a whole in a small piece of metal 1/2 in thick or more that fits a regular nail of
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 2, 2013
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      I just make my own on my Mastermyr nail jig but you can try this:
      Drill a whole in a small piece of metal 1/2 in thick or more that fits a regular nail of your choice of size.
      Put the nail in and beat on the head with a ball peen hammer until it looks appropriately medieval.  You may need to drill a hole in a block of wood to support it if the nail is longer that the thickness of the metal.  The heads will look right and the rest of the nail (in most cases) will be buried in the wood.


      On 9/1/2013 5:33 PM, Peter Ellison wrote:
       
      For a source of nails I have been very happy with:
      http://www.tremontnail.com/tremont-furniture.htm

      They are cut nails, but they have ones that look like they have been forged by hand.

      One of the wood retailers has packages of different types of their nails.

      Personally I got mine to make a clenched nail box from the Joiner and the Cabinetmaker.  The "book box" has worked very well as a traveling tool chest.  While from the 1850's it was fun to make and looks better than a rubber maid tub at me feet.


      Peter Petrovitch.


      On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 2:10 PM, <duke_henrik@...> wrote:
       

       Here in California I have little if any opportunity to see any period woodwork, so I just use my imagination and try to engineer solutions that incorporate period tools, materials and likely methods, if I can't reference real ones. My projects tend to be simple and practical fulfilling ealry period reenactment needs.


      One area I am finding a growing paucity of options is in fasteners. Mention of rosehead nails being clenched over is one. Short of making them in a forge, the only source I had discovered of such was Van Dykes Restorers company ( see:  http://www.vandykes.com/clavos-6-pack/p/203823/  ):, which  has discontinued carying long versions and onlu sells nails( they call them Clavoc) with big heads that are only one inch long.. Great for decotrating a door, but useless for fastening anything that is substantial.


      I prefer clenching as described here when using steel or iron nails, but I will also pien over a washer if I want something stronger. In some cases I use bare copper grounding wire which comes in diameters up to 1/4 inch and any length needed, cliped to length and then form a head on one end, drill a hole to receive it and put a washer down and pien over it. The reasons I  use copper are: it is easier to drill out or chisel off the head ( without dulling a wood chisel significantly) to remove then a steel or iron rivet would be, it is stronger than the wood it is used on,it is rust proof, it is easier to form than steel and most iron, it develops a nice patina over time, it is a period material. How period it may be, to use copper instead of iron, is unknown to me, but it is practical to use today.


      Henrik


      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, <lhjw66576@...> wrote:

      Jerry,
      the most of the period strapwork fastenings I've seen have been 'rosehead cut nails'. Only a very few have been "through-bolted" - usually the hasps, staples, and lifting handles..
      And I'd say 95% of those fastenings have been clenched-over back into the wall-timber, inside the chests.
      I do recall having seen a few medieval chests where the makers had added 'roves' to spread the loading - but the most of the fastenings have been simply clenched-over - presumably using a heavy dolly outside, and a ball-pein hammer inside. That's what I do and it seem to work well enough.
      However, just to make that operation easier, I do take the time to sharpen the business-end of each nail to a really-sharp point, and bend the first 6mm behind that point at right angles to the main shaft in the direction of the clench, once I've hammered the nail through the pilot-hole in the chest timber,  - before starting the clenching-over operation.
      regards,
       Matthewe


      From: Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, 1 September 2013, 7:34
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] boxes

       
      Here is another question on boxes with metal straps: How are they
      finished on the inside? Are the rivets/nails just clenched over? Are
      they fitted with washers and peened like a rivit? are there straps
      inside too?





    • Julian Wilson
      I think what the US-centred Ironmongery Trade names as cut nails are what we name as Rosehead Cut Nails or Pyramid Head Nails from your description. 
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 2, 2013
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        I think what the US-centred Ironmongery Trade names as "cut nails" are what we name as "Rosehead Cut Nails" or "Pyramid Head Nails" from your description.  Over here in the UK  - the "lost head" versions of these Restoration-Trade nails are called "flooring brads".
        The Glasgow Steel Nail Co. - [the Western World's oldest Manufacturer of steel nails, still advertising that they made these nails on 200yr.-old machinery, the last time I looked,]   - was apparently bought by US-owned "Acorn" last year and transferred to the USA this year. The only trouble I found in the past - dealing with them - was that they would only sell their product "direct" in commercial quantities of 50kgs per order.
        So, Brusi, - thanks for the referral to Lee Valley and to Tools For Working Wood, who you tell us all will sell in smaller quantities..
        Matthewe,
         Island of "old" Jersey, U.K.


        From: bsrlee <bsrlee2@...>


         
        The best approximation of 'period' nails readily available in quantity are called 'cut nails', and are currently made by the Tremont Nail company in the USofA.

        Lee Valley stock a fair range of them in a variety of styles and sizes, and seem to be the best value if buying in quantity.
        http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=40387&cat=3,41306,41324

        Tools for Working Wood also have an even larger range of Tremont nails packaged under their house brand (Brooklyn Tool & Craft) but they are slightly more expensive per pound as their packet quanties are smaller.
        http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/  then search for 'nails'.
        They also have nice 19th Century 'King's County' style hand finished hammers.

        I have purchased from both many times without any problems - well, other than the tool p*rn and a smoking credit card.


      • conradh@...
        I was taught years ago to slightly curl the sharp tip of a clinch nail, drive it through the pilot hole until the tip was just visible, then set a heavy
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 5, 2013
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          I was taught years ago to slightly curl the sharp tip of a clinch nail,
          drive it through the pilot hole until the tip was just visible, then set a
          heavy backing iron on the _inside_ and continue driving from the outside.
          The nail curves over and re-inters the wood, as opposed to just being bent
          over flat against the inside surface.

          Have you seen any signs of this method in period? They have a distinctive
          appearance; almost like the rounded top of a staple. Or were they all
          simply bent flat, as you've described?

          Ulfhedinn



          > the most of the period strapwork fastenings I've seen have been 'rosehead
          > cut nails'. Only a very few have been "through-bolted" - usually the
          > hasps, staples, and lifting handles..
          > And I'd say 95% of those fastenings have been clenched-over back into the
          > wall-timber, inside the chests.
          >
          > I do recall having seen a few medieval chests where the makers had added
          > 'roves' to spread the loading - but the most of the fastenings have been
          > simply clenched-over - presumably using a heavy dolly outside, and a
          > ball-pein hammer inside. That's what I do and it seem to work well enough.
          >
          > However, just to make that operation easier, I do take the time to sharpen
          > the business-end of each nail to a really-sharp point, and bend the first
          > 6mm behind that point at right angles to the main shaft in the direction
          > of the clench, once I've hammered the nail through the pilot-hole in the
          > chest timber,  - before starting the clenching-over operation.
          > regards,
          >  Matthewe
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...>
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, 1 September 2013, 7:34
          > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] boxes
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          > Here is another question on boxes with metal straps: How are they
          > finished on the inside? Are the rivets/nails just clenched over? Are
          > they fitted with washers and peened like a rivit? are there straps
          > inside too?
          >
          >
          >
        • D. Young
          Yes this technique is used from the middle ages to the 19th century. I have numerous original pieces and components of furniture....many curled over nails. ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 5, 2013
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            Yes this technique is used from the middle ages to the 19th century.

            I have numerous original pieces and components of furniture....many curled over nails.

            :)

            hope that helps
            Drew



            Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                 Custom Commissions Welcome....!

            www.partsandtechnical.com
            (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
             



            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            From: conradh@...
            Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 00:54:53 -0700
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] interiors of boxes

             
            I was taught years ago to slightly curl the sharp tip of a clinch nail,
            drive it through the pilot hole until the tip was just visible, then set a
            heavy backing iron on the _inside_ and continue driving from the outside.
            The nail curves over and re-inters the wood, as opposed to just being bent
            over flat against the inside surface.

            Have you seen any signs of this method in period? They have a distinctive
            appearance; almost like the rounded top of a staple. Or were they all
            simply bent flat, as you've described?

            Ulfhedinn

            > the most of the period strapwork fastenings I've seen have been 'rosehead
            > cut nails'. Only a very few have been "through-bolted" - usually the
            > hasps, staples, and lifting handles..
            > And I'd say 95% of those fastenings have been clenched-over back into the
            > wall-timber, inside the chests.
            >
            > I do recall having seen a few medieval chests where the makers had added
            > 'roves' to spread the loading - but the most of the fastenings have been
            > simply clenched-over - presumably using a heavy dolly outside, and a
            > ball-pein hammer inside. That's what I do and it seem to work well enough.
            >
            > However, just to make that operation easier, I do take the time to sharpen
            > the business-end of each nail to a really-sharp point, and bend the first
            > 6mm behind that point at right angles to the main shaft in the direction
            > of the clench, once I've hammered the nail through the pilot-hole in the
            > chest timber,  - before starting the clenching-over operation.
            > regards,
            >  Matthewe
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...>
            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, 1 September 2013, 7:34
            > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] boxes
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            > Here is another question on boxes with metal straps: How are they
            > finished on the inside? Are the rivets/nails just clenched over? Are
            > they fitted with washers and peened like a rivit? are there straps
            > inside too?
            >
            >
            >


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