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Re: Brace/bits

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  • gloerke
    There is a Leonardo da Vinci invention/image showing an improved brace and bit design, which places the brace and bit at least into the late 15th century.
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 28, 2013
      There is a Leonardo da Vinci invention/image showing an improved brace and bit design, which places the brace and bit at least into the late 15th century.

      Marijn / Thomasguild

      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Hall, Hayward" <hallh@...> wrote:
      >
      > How early can we document removable bits from a brace? Every one I've seen in period (and this is very limited) so far appears to have a fixed bit.
      >
      > Some good documentation I've seen so far is on ThomasGuild showing inventories of tools, where one or 2 braces show up in tool inventories until 1592 where "one brace and 5 bits for the same" are listed.
      >
      > Guillaume
      >
    • Hall, Hayward
      I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging a slot in the
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 1, 2013
        I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging a slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can anyone confirm that (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures of braces from the Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen a pin on the knob. Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an event.

        Guillaume

        -----Original Message-----
        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gloerke
        Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:28 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Brace/bits

        There is a Leonardo da Vinci invention/image showing an improved brace and bit design, which places the brace and bit at least into the late 15th century.

        Marijn / Thomasguild

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Hall, Hayward" <hallh@...> wrote:
        >
        > How early can we document removable bits from a brace? Every one I've seen in period (and this is very limited) so far appears to have a fixed bit.
        >
        > Some good documentation I've seen so far is on ThomasGuild showing inventories of tools, where one or 2 braces show up in tool inventories until 1592 where "one brace and 5 bits for the same" are listed.
        >
        > Guillaume
        >




        ------------------------------------
      • conradh@...
        ... Wouldn t a pin like that lock the knob to the shaft? Or by slot do you mean a turned groove near the top end of the shaft? The knob needs to be free to
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 3, 2013
          > I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval
          > braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging a
          > slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can anyone confirm that
          > (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures of braces from the
          > Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen a pin on the knob.
          > Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an event.
          >
          Wouldn't a pin like that lock the knob to the shaft? Or by "slot" do you
          mean a turned groove near the top end of the shaft? The knob needs to be
          free to turn, just not fall off all the time. You can engage that groove
          with the end of a very short pin, or with a metal tab pressed into a slot.

          Trouble is, neither would be very conspicuous, and might easily be missed
          by an artist drawing tools. I've seen old tools where time and tarnish
          has made them hard to see when the tool is in your hand!

          Ulfhedinn
        • Hall, Hayward
          Yes, a pin in a groove. Here s a pic from the Mary Rose http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fLXjsg2_rV0/UQL9h4ysk-I/AAAAAAAACpM/aCSKOk3Keig/s1600/mary-rose-gauge.jpg
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 3, 2013
            Yes, a pin in a groove. Here's a pic from the Mary Rose http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fLXjsg2_rV0/UQL9h4ysk-I/AAAAAAAACpM/aCSKOk3Keig/s1600/mary-rose-gauge.jpg
            Its just that I've never see a hole for the pin on the knob. It also looks like, in this one anyway, that the shaft is a separate piece inserted into the body.

            I guess its pretty obvious that's what it is, I just want confirmation.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of conradh@...
            Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 7:12 PM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Brace/bits

            > I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval
            > braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging
            > a slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can anyone confirm
            > that (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures of braces
            > from the Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen a pin on the knob.
            > Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an event.
            >
            Wouldn't a pin like that lock the knob to the shaft? Or by "slot" do you mean a turned groove near the top end of the shaft? The knob needs to be free to turn, just not fall off all the time. You can engage that groove with the end of a very short pin, or with a metal tab pressed into a slot.

            Trouble is, neither would be very conspicuous, and might easily be missed by an artist drawing tools. I've seen old tools where time and tarnish has made them hard to see when the tool is in your hand!

            Ulfhedinn




            ------------------------------------
          • Jerry Harder
            The pin goes through the knob and intersects the intersection of the knob and the brace on one side. (Think side view) The brace must have a grove all the
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 3, 2013
              The pin goes through the knob and intersects the intersection of the knob and the brace on one side.  (Think side view)  The brace must have a grove all the way round so that the pin can ride around it. The pin is not on the centerline of the knob or the brace, and it is not the end of the pin that rides in the grove, it is the pins side.

              On 9/3/2013 7:12 PM, conradh@... wrote:
               

              > I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval
              > braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging a
              > slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can anyone confirm that
              > (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures of braces from the
              > Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen a pin on the knob.
              > Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an event.
              >
              Wouldn't a pin like that lock the knob to the shaft? Or by "slot" do you
              mean a turned groove near the top end of the shaft? The knob needs to be
              free to turn, just not fall off all the time. You can engage that groove
              with the end of a very short pin, or with a metal tab pressed into a slot.

              Trouble is, neither would be very conspicuous, and might easily be missed
              by an artist drawing tools. I've seen old tools where time and tarnish
              has made them hard to see when the tool is in your hand!

              Ulfhedinn


            • Vels inn Viggladi
              ... on top of medieval ... knob and engaging a ... anyone confirm that ... of braces from the ... a pin on the knob. ... event. Confirmed. Page 301 of one of
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 4, 2013
                > I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob
                on top of medieval
                > braces was held in place by a pin going through the
                knob and engaging a
                > slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can
                anyone confirm that
                > (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures
                of braces from the
                > Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen
                a pin on the knob.
                > Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an
                event.

                Confirmed. Page 301 of one of the Mary Rose books shows an illustrated cut-away of the pin/groove mechanism of a brace (objects 81A0711/1-2 and 81A4481). There is another (81A3094/1-2) that is a friction fit that appears to be a round mortise in the knob that is flared to be wider at the "bottom" than it is at the opening. The shaft likewise has a bulbous round tenon that mates into the knob. I figure the only way for that to work would be to soak the brace shaft until it is pliably wet then encourage the socket together with a bit of force.

                Marijn had posted links to pdf versions of this document and shared a link here sometime in the last few months. Might suggest going through the list archives or scouring the St. Thomas Guild blog for the link.



                Vels



              • Hall, Hayward
                Excellent, thank you. I ll search for that. Guillaume From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vels inn
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 4, 2013

                  Excellent, thank you.  I’ll search for that.

                   

                  Guillaume

                   

                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vels inn Viggladi
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 7:01 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Brace/bits

                   




                  > I have heard a rumour (thanks Gerald) that the knob on top of medieval
                  > braces was held in place by a pin going through the knob and engaging a
                  > slot in the shaft sticking up out of the body. Can anyone confirm that
                  > (possibly in the Mary Rose book)? I've seen pictures of braces from the
                  > Vassa (1600's) with slotted shafts but Ive never seen a pin on the knob.
                  > Trying to finish up a brace to use this weekend at an event.

                  Confirmed. Page 301 of one of the Mary Rose books shows an illustrated cut-away of the pin/groove mechanism of a brace (objects 81A0711/1-2 and 81A4481). There is another (81A3094/1-2) that is a friction fit that appears to be a round mortise in the knob that is flared to be wider at the "bottom" than it is at the opening. The shaft likewise has a bulbous round tenon that mates into the knob. I figure the only way for that to work would be to soak the brace shaft until it is pliably wet then encourage the socket together with a bit of force.

                  Marijn had posted links to pdf versions of this document and shared a link here sometime in the last few months. Might suggest going through the list archives or scouring the St. Thomas Guild blog for the link.



                  Vels

                   




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