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Box jounts

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  • Jerry Harder
    I didn t get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any evidence but I ll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the medieval use of
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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      I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
      evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
      medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
    • bsrlee
      It is one of those grey areas to me, there is evidence in the form of surviving examples of the Roman use of both full dovetails in architectual pieces
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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        It is one of those 'grey' areas to me, there is evidence in the form of
        surviving examples of the Roman use of both full dovetails in
        architectual pieces (London waterfront)and something that is half a
        dovetail and half a box joint - it has one side of the pin straight and
        the other side of the pin is angled, with all the fingers from both
        sides being equal as in a 'finger' or 'box' joint - in smaller boxes
        (Rhine ship wreck and others).

        There is a passing mention of a 'Viking','dovetailed box' in the wooden
        objects volume York Archeology reports, now available online as a .pdf,
        but I haven't found any illustrations of the original piece (it is not
        from York).

        After that it is pretty much straight on (with a big gap in evidence and
        literature) to variously proportioned dovetail joints as we know them
        today, with the straight sided, evenly spaced 'finger' joints not
        appearing until the general use of machine tools which made them
        relatively easy to manufacture. What is not dovetailed seems to be
        either some sort of nailed and/or strapped butt/mitre joint
        (Swallowcliffe Down box has mitred corners with narrow brass-oid straps
        in grooves running around the corners and nailed on) or a variation on
        draw bored mortise and tennon joints (clamp fronted chests).

        Unfortunately most Archeologists are not woodworkers, so their
        terminology if often imprecise - to a non woodworker a finger joint and
        a dovetail are just the same thing, and if your spell checker refuses to
        accept 'dovetail' then finger joint is just as good, and most of your
        audience won't know the difference.

        regards
        Brusi of Orkney
        Rowany/Lochac

        On 11-Aug-13 5:13 PM, Jerry Harder wrote:
        > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
        > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
        > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
        >
        >
        >
      • Jeff
        The answer is that they didn t use box joints until the modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable enough to hold the jount together, without the
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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          The answer is that they didn't use box joints until the modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable enough to hold the jount together, without the mechanical help of the dovetail structuer. So, no, there is no evidence to use it for anything in the periods covered by the SCA.

          Sorry


          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
          >
          > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
          > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
          > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
          >
        • Peter Ellison
          Personally I have not seen this type of joint until machines started to make them. Working by hand they are no less effort than dove tails, since your going to
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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            Personally I have not seen this type of joint until machines started to make them. 

            Working by hand they are no less effort than dove tails, since your going to transfer the marks based cutting the first one you might as well angle the cuts so that even if the glue fails the joint will hold together.


            What I have seen examples of:
            For connecting panels, rabit and nailed panels (6 board chest type boxes).
            Frame and panel, the frame is mortice and tenon joined with floating panels. (think door panels)
            Depending on region and application dovetailed joints. (seem to be less common but they show up in strange places)

            If your going to make a bunch of boxes and paint them it does not really matter since paint will cover the joint.  If your doing it by hand and you have never made dove tails my suggestion is "just do it" it is not as hard and complicated as people make it out.

            Peter Petrovitch.


            On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
             

            I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
            evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
            medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.


          • Vels inn Viggladi
            Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/ Enlarge the
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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              Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
              Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
              The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.

              Unrelated to your needs, I feel compelled to point out that what the English call "Poplar" is what those in the States would call "Popple" or "Cottonwood."


              Vels

              > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              > From: geraldgoodwine@...
              > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2013 02:13:11 -0500
              > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Box jounts
              >
              > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
              > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
              > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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            • Michael Houghton
              Howdy! ... I don t agree with your interpretation. I m not happy with the view of the end, but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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                Howdy!

                On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came
                > across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
                > Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
                > The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.

                I don't agree with your interpretation. I'm not happy with the view of the end,
                but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the end
                should clarify the question.

                yours,
                Herveus



                --
                Michael Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde
                herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix
                Lanham, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
              • Michael Houghton
                Howdy! ... In fact, when I actually read their description, they clearly state that the sides are dovetailed into the ends, although not in the usual
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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                  Howdy!

                  On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came
                  > across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
                  > Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
                  > The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.
                  >
                  In fact, when I actually read their description, they clearly state
                  that the sides
                  are dovetailed into the ends, although not in the usual configuration that keeps
                  the ends from popping off.

                  yours,
                  Herveus


                  --
                  Michael Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde
                  herveus@... | White Wolf and the Phoenix
                  Lanham, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                  | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
                • Vels inn Viggladi
                  ... Oh yeah... and looks sloppier than my first attempt. Shoulda looked through the rest of the images on that one. -V
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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                    >
                    > I don't agree with your interpretation. I'm not happy with the view of the end,
                    > but what I see seems consistent with dovetails. A better shot of the end
                    > should clarify the question.
                    >
                    > yours,
                    > Herveus

                    Oh yeah... and looks sloppier than my first attempt. <grin> Shoulda looked through the rest of the images on that one.


                    -V

                  • Hall, Hayward
                    If you go a few images in, the side shot shows they are dovetails. :( Cool box though. From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 11, 2013
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                      If you go a few images in, the side shot shows they are dovetails. L

                       

                      Cool box though.

                       

                      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vels inn Viggladi
                      Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 12:40 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Box jounts

                       




                      Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
                      Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
                      The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.

                      Unrelated to your needs, I feel compelled to point out that what the English call "Poplar" is what those in the States would call "Popple" or "Cottonwood."


                      Vels

                      > To:

                      medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: geraldgoodwine@...
                      > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2013 02:13:11 -0500
                      > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Box jounts
                      >
                      > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
                      > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
                      > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                      >
                      > <*> Your email settings:
                      > Individual Email | Traditional
                      >
                      > <*> To change settings online go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/join
                      > (Yahoo! ID required)
                      >
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                      > medievalsawdust-digest@yahoogroups.com
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                      >
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                    • Jerry Harder
                      That s what I am finding but it had nothing to do with glue. I have been using medieval glue for years and they work fine.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 13, 2013
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                        That's what I am finding but it had nothing to do with glue.  I have been using medieval glue for years and they work fine.


                        On 8/11/2013 8:28 AM, Jeff wrote:
                         


                        The answer is that they didn't use box joints until the modern period - 20th century, when glues became stable enough to hold the jount together, without the mechanical help of the dovetail structuer. So, no, there is no evidence to use it for anything in the periods covered by the SCA.

                        Sorry

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
                        > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
                        > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
                        >


                      • Jerry Harder
                        Just finished the just do it a couple of days ago. Working on a lock design now before putting the box together.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 13, 2013
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                          Just finished the just do it a couple of days ago.  Working on a lock design now before putting the box together.

                          On 8/11/2013 9:37 AM, Peter Ellison wrote:
                           
                          Personally I have not seen this type of joint until machines started to make them. 

                          Working by hand they are no less effort than dove tails, since your going to transfer the marks based cutting the first one you might as well angle the cuts so that even if the glue fails the joint will hold together.


                          What I have seen examples of:
                          For connecting panels, rabit and nailed panels (6 board chest type boxes).
                          Frame and panel, the frame is mortice and tenon joined with floating panels. (think door panels)
                          Depending on region and application dovetailed joints. (seem to be less common but they show up in strange places)

                          If your going to make a bunch of boxes and paint them it does not really matter since paint will cover the joint.  If your doing it by hand and you have never made dove tails my suggestion is "just do it" it is not as hard and complicated as people make it out.

                          Peter Petrovitch.


                          On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
                           

                          I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
                          evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
                          medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.



                        • Jerry Harder
                          Im not convinced. I think the front panel may have the pins and the sides have the dovetails. The view of the side is not really clear enough to tell.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 13, 2013
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                            Im not convinced.  I think the front panel may have the pins and the sides have the dovetails.  The view of the side is not really clear enough to tell.

                            n 8/11/2013 12:39 PM, Vels inn Viggladi wrote:
                             

                            Serendipitously, I was doing a bit of digging on Cassone just now and came across this : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O81200/cassone-unknown/
                            Enlarge the first image and the box joint is ridiculously evident.
                            The piece is from Tuscany, circa 1430-1460. It's a good sized chest.

                            Unrelated to your needs, I feel compelled to point out that what the English call "Poplar" is what those in the States would call "Popple" or "Cottonwood."


                            Vels

                            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: geraldgoodwine@...
                            > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2013 02:13:11 -0500
                            > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Box jounts
                            >
                            > I didn't get much of a response so I am assuming there is little if any
                            > evidence but I'll try again. Does anyone know of any examples of the
                            > medieval use of finger joints also called box or knuckle joints.
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/
                            >
                            > <*> Your email settings:
                            > Individual Email | Traditional
                            >
                            > <*> To change settings online go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medievalsawdust/join
                            > (Yahoo! ID required)
                            >
                            > <*> To change settings via email:
                            > medievalsawdust-digest@yahoogroups.com
                            > medievalsawdust-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > medievalsawdust-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >

                          • David
                            ... Could you give me some direction on making medieval glues? I have Cennini s milk glue recipe. I would like to try to make some other glues and strength
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 13, 2013
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                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > That's what I am finding but it had nothing to do with glue. I have
                              > been using medieval glue for years and they work fine.

                              Could you give me some direction on making medieval glues? I have Cennini's milk glue recipe. I would like to try to make some other glues and strength test them.
                              Tristan
                            • Jerry Harder
                              The following attachment should help
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 13, 2013
                              The following attachment should help

                              On 8/13/2013 7:33 AM, David wrote:
                               



                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > That's what I am finding but it had nothing to do with glue. I have
                              > been using medieval glue for years and they work fine.

                              Could you give me some direction on making medieval glues? I have Cennini's milk glue recipe. I would like to try to make some other glues and strength test them.
                              Tristan


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