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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: carving a trough?

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  • Jerry Harder
    OK as a blacksmith, you will find that such a gentle curve will be better accomplished with some gentle taping on a FLAT hard wood stump. You will accomplish
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 30, 2013
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      OK as a blacksmith, you will find that such a gentle curve will be better accomplished with some gentle taping on a FLAT hard wood stump.  You will accomplish this best with a hammer that has the flat end slightly rounded so you don't fill it full of divots, and this work does NOT need to be done hot. The hammer face (now I am talking about the flat en which you will be using, not the ball end) of a 1-2 lb hammer should be rounded about like the curvature of a volley ball with the edges corners rounded off.  The wood end of a stump will naturally give way much like the rosin used to back filigree work.  The sewage blocks you are referring to are designed for smaller curves and will make them pretty precisely but a wood version will not hold up.  You would be lucky to get one or two parts from it before it goes out of speck or smashes to bits.  If you used a hardwood stump to cut your valley into,  and a oak or elm piece for the top it may work.  you may need to make the trouft deeper than the part you are trying to make.  Typically what you are thinking works in a modern tool and dye sense, but the presses modernly used strike the metal once between a set of metal dies with a top and bottom form and they hit the metal with forces around 8 to 20 TONS! That's not the situation with blacksmithing.  It is a modern myth that you need all these special forms to make stuff.  So on my list of things to do is find someone with a camera and the computer skills to post a vido on utupe or something showing how to put these curves in metal because it has been frustrating for me to see so many folks failing or not trying because they don't have the "(IM)-proper" equipment.  The correct forms for the right stuff can however be awesome.


      On 6/30/2013 10:19 AM, K wrote:
       

      um ... pine may be too soft for what you want in the way you described using it. try using a stump/"end grain" of anything.
      K



    • Hall, Hayward
      Drill the holes in a block of hardwood then cut it in two. From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scot
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2013
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        Drill the holes in a block of hardwood then cut it in two.

         

        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scot Eddy
        Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:51 AM
        To: Medieval Sawdust
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?

         




        I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 

         

        Kind of like one of these....

         

         

        Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.

         

        Thanks!

         

        Scot Eddy




      • Mike Foley
        There is a way using a table saw and running the wood over the blade at an angle  you need to make 3 or 4 passes to get the depth and width you want. You are
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1, 2013
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          There is a way using a table saw and running the wood over the blade at an angle
           you need to make 3 or 4 passes to get the depth and width you want.
          You are using the blade almost like a router bit.
           You need to make several test cuts, but when you get the blade set right it works great.
          Check some of the woodshop type of videos.
          Cheers
           Mike

          From: "Hall, Hayward" <hallh@...>
          To: "medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com" <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:45 PM
          Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?
           
          Drill the holes in a block of hardwood then cut it in two.
           
          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scot Eddy
          Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:51 AM
          To: Medieval Sawdust
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?
           



          I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
           
          Kind of like one of these....
           
          http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
           
          Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
           
          Thanks!
           
          Scot Eddy



        • Arghylle Buchanan
          That is a cove cut. ________________________________ From: Mike Foley To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 2, 2013
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            That is a cove cut.




            From: Mike Foley <mfsbuell@...>
            To: "medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com" <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 4:58 PM
            Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?

             
            There is a way using a table saw and running the wood over the blade at an angle
             you need to make 3 or 4 passes to get the depth and width you want.
            You are using the blade almost like a router bit.
             You need to make several test cuts, but when you get the blade set right it works great.
            Check some of the woodshop type of videos.
            Cheers
             Mike

            From: "Hall, Hayward" <hallh@...>
            To: "medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com" <medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:45 PM
            Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?
             
            Drill the holes in a block of hardwood then cut it in two.
             
            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scot Eddy
            Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 1:51 AM
            To: Medieval Sawdust
            Subject: [MedievalSawdust] carving a trough?
             



            I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
             
            Kind of like one of these....
             
            http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
             
            Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
             
            Thanks!
             
            Scot Eddy





          • henrikofhavn
            I just joined this list and this is my first post to it. Jerry is right. Listen to him! Use a hardwood stump end, and hammer a long shallow dent into the end
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 2, 2013
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              I just joined this list and this is my first post to it.

              Jerry is right. Listen to him! Use a hardwood stump end, and hammer a long shallow dent into the end grain, Look for tree trimmers/cutters in your town who are cutting up trees into firewood sized stumps and get a hardwood one from them. call a tree service and ask them if they have any hardwood stumps available, if you can't find any out i n the area who are at work. They often have left overs in their yard and may sell or even give you a piece that is older and more dry and therefore harder. The end grain of the stump will crush down to the shape you want without needing any wood to be cut away. Just do it like Gerald says to do.

              Most of the people who answered your inquiry here don't understand what you intend to do and offer the wrong advice. Your posting the picture of a smaller steel swage block added to their confusion since they think you want a one or two inch diameter half trough and not the 3/4 inch deep by 4 inches wide by 12 or so iniches long. They think a half round hole is what you want and some said to use a round drill bit ( 4 inches in diameter and 14 inches long - really ???!!!) to drill a hole and then cut it in half, or use a round table saw blade to cut a cove depression for your trough - which would then be 2 inches deep and not the 3/4 inches specified. They don't understand you want a shallow oval hole which drilling with round bits or cutting with round saw blades can't produce. So ignore everyone but Jerry, he's right.

              When Jerry says to make the trough a bit deeper he is taking into account that when you try to hammer the steel into the trough, it will tend to spring back a bit and not be as curved as the wooden form it is hammered in to, is.

              In fact if it gets overly curved, you can straighten it out a bit by placing it curve facing down on a flat and hard surface and gently tapping it down the centerline of the back. You can vary the degree of curve this way too by hitting harder where you want it flatter and softer - or not at all- where you want it curved sharper, This way it can fit your wrist in a close curve and your upper forearm in a wider curve.

              Alternatively you can buy a pair of "welding pliers" from Harbour Freight stores ( they are on line too) for around $10 each - look for 20% discount coupons for Harbor Freight in many magazines including American Rifleman Magazine. These welding pliers have flat faces on the jaws which are 3 inches wide and 1 inch deep. With them you can grab the opposite edges of your steel sheet and bend them together a bit. Unless your sheet steel is really thick or stiff - like over 1/16 inch thick, or hard tempered - it should bend in a relatively smooth curve, especially if you have a solidly secured vertical post or pipe ( like a cyclone fence post) that you can bend it around. With the wide jaws, 3 or more inches of the plate will be bent at the same time and if you bend just a little each time you can even the bend by moving the pliers up and down the edges to do so. Any unevenness can be smoothed out by planishing ( hammering down any high spots to even out the surface with a smooth faced hammer) the outside surface over a curved support like a big 2 or 3 inch diameter steel pipe, perhaps even the one you used to bend the plate around at first.

              Henrik


              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine@...> wrote:
              >
              > OK as a blacksmith, you will find that such a gentle curve will be
              > better accomplished with some gentle taping on a FLAT hard wood stump.
              > You will accomplish this best with a hammer that has the flat end
              > slightly rounded so you don't fill it full of divots, and this work does
              > NOT need to be done hot. The hammer face (now I am talking about the
              > flat en which you will be using, not the ball end) of a 1-2 lb hammer
              > should be rounded about like the curvature of a volley ball with the
              > edges corners rounded off. The wood end of a stump will naturally give
              > way much like the rosin used to back filigree work. The sewage blocks
              > you are referring to are designed for smaller curves and will make them
              > pretty precisely but a wood version will not hold up. You would be
              > lucky to get one or two parts from it before it goes out of speck or
              > smashes to bits. If you used a hardwood stump to cut your valley into,
              > and a oak or elm piece for the top it may work. you may need to make
              > the trouft deeper than the part you are trying to make. Typically what
              > you are thinking works in a modern tool and dye sense, but the presses
              > modernly used strike the metal once between a set of metal dies with a
              > top and bottom form and they hit the metal with forces around 8 to 20
              > TONS! That's not the situation with blacksmithing. It is a modern myth
              > that you need all these special forms to make stuff. So on my list of
              > things to do is find someone with a camera and the computer skills to
              > post a vido on utupe or something showing how to put these curves in
              > metal because it has been frustrating for me to see so many folks
              > failing or not trying because they don't have the "(IM)-proper"
              > equipment. The correct forms for the right stuff can however be awesome.
              >
              >
              > On 6/30/2013 10:19 AM, K wrote:
              > >
              > > um ... pine may be too soft for what you want in the way you described
              > > using it. try using a stump/"end grain" of anything.
              > > K
              > >
              > >
              >
            • henrikofhavn
              Scott, here is an alternate idea, instead of using wood, Try looking in junk yards for useful shapes of steel. Steel will serve you longer than wood will for
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 2, 2013
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                Scott, here is an alternate idea, instead of using wood,
                Try looking in junk yards for useful shapes of steel. Steel will serve you longer than wood will for armor plate shaping, in general. Between a 2 to 6 foot length of a large diameter (2 inches to 4 inches) steel pipe and a chunk of heavy steel like a large back hoe bucket tooth or bulldozer bucket tooth, or a piece of railroad track, you could probably do most of your armor shaping. I made my first helmet using a 2 foot length of railroad track , a ball pien hammer, a non-electric hand drill and a borrowed saber saw. I wore it in the lists and won 6 crowns wearing it during the first ten years, and still wear the same helmet for dress, 47 years (to be clear, that's almost five decades) later.

                A piece of railroad track has trough like curved corners under the overhanging upper rail surface, on each side of the central vertical rib connecting the rail to the base flange that the spikes hold down to the wooden cross ties of the track. These curved corners are where a plate can be hammered into, in lieu of a steel swage block or a wooden trough. Just lay the track on it's side and go to town. Likewise where the central rib meets the base flange of the track, two other curved corners create a larger area where curving cam be done to a larger diameter, such as for grieves. then the distance between these two rounded corners at the top and bottom of the rail can acomodate an even larger diameter, such as would be useful in making quises or helmets. Look around your local scrap or rail yard and see if there are any scraps that need a new home.

                Henrik



                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                >
                > I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
                >
                > Kind of like one of these....
                >
                > http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
                >
                >
                > Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
                >
                > Thanks!
                >
                > Scot Eddy
                >
              • karincorbin
                sounds like a job for a set of metal rollers rather than a trough.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 17, 2013
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                  sounds like a job for a set of metal rollers rather than a trough.

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
                  >
                  > Kind of like one of these....
                  >
                  > http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
                  >
                  >
                  > Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  >
                  > Scot Eddy
                  >
                • leaking pen
                  drill holes then knock out pieces with a chisel and mallet. It s the method used to make lutes and guiterens.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 17, 2013
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                    drill holes then knock out pieces with a chisel and mallet. It's the method used to make lutes and guiterens.


                    On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                     

                    I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 

                    Kind of like one of these....


                    Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.

                    Thanks!

                    Scot Eddy


                  • Jim Hart
                    Make saw cuts along the groove and then chisel out the waste.... smooth it down with chisels, gouges, rasps, and finally scrapers or sandpaper.... Like this
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 20, 2013
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                      Make saw cuts along the groove and then chisel out the waste.... smooth it down with chisels, gouges, rasps, and finally scrapers or sandpaper.... 

                      Like this but smaller....



                      On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:49 PM, karincorbin <karincorbin@...> wrote:
                       

                      sounds like a job for a set of metal rollers rather than a trough.

                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
                      >
                      > Kind of like one of these....
                      >
                      > http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
                      >
                      >
                      > Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      >
                      > Scot Eddy
                      >




                      --
                      Jim Hart
                        Conal OhAirt

                      Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy
                    • karincorbin
                      They did have curved bottom planes which would have done a nice job of dressing out the bottom. And they did have curved blade planes. Of course you don t have
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 24, 2013
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                        They did have curved bottom planes which would have done a nice job of dressing out the bottom. And they did have curved blade planes. Of course you don't have either one.....

                        But if you are going to do it with modern tools of which you have only the basics then I would take a series of passes with a circular saw lowering the blade to the various depths needed from side to side. Then I would remove the excess waste with a chisel or curved gouge. Final cleanup with a curved sanding block to smooth it all out. You could cut the radius of the sanding block surface with a scroll saw, fret saw, jig saw, etc.

                        You will want to create a pattern of the full radius from a piece of plywood so you can check your groove to see if it is consistent.

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I want to make a 12" to 14" long trough that is 3/4" deep, and 4" wide. With a curved bottom. Out of wood. 
                        >
                        > Kind of like one of these....
                        >
                        > http://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Swage-Block-6-Groove-prcode-999-777
                        >
                        >
                        > Is there a quick and easy way to do this. I'll be using it to hammer pieces of metal into them.
                        >
                        > Thanks!
                        >
                        > Scot Eddy
                        >
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