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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

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  • Vels inn Viggladi
    Not to be rude, but I don t really think there is a modern way to produce that kind of micromosaic. The V&A Summary speaks of cutting the polygons off as
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 8, 2013
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      Not to be rude, but I don't really think there is a "modern" way to produce that kind of micromosaic. The V&A Summary speaks of cutting the polygons off as slivers from a rod made up of differently cut pieces of wood, and the straight "lines" that fill in between are likewise made from laminations, like plywood, that are sliced off and trimmed. To build up the pattern, the slices are glued to a paper backing, then wrapped around the finished box. The box looks to be simply nailed together.
      The tools and techniques for this really haven't changed in six or seven centuries, and the last time they became widely popular was during the American Federalist period. Even if machine tools are used for milling and cutting, I can't think of a "modern" machine that would put the slices and slivers together into the mosaic pattern. For some parts of that, hand-cutting would likely be faster.


      Vels


      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      From: helen.schultz@...
      Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:53:33 -0400
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

      

      Thank you, Margherita, for the links... I loved the first box... would love to try to build one, but know I just wouldn't have the patience to do it in the period manner <sigh>.  Such delicate and intricate fitting and then cutting... just boggles the mind.
       
      ~~ Katarina Helene
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:33 PM
      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

       

      Ormr,

      I ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something else.  I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.

      There is one medieval wooden box in the V&A: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/
      They also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/

      IHTH,
      Margaret

       
      THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)

      Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
      Chronicler and Web Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
      Deputy Chatelaine for the Shire of Spiaggia Levantina

      From: lord.ormr <simpson1999@...>
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:28 PM
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

       
      Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.

      If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly grateful.

      Thanks,

      Ormr






    • karincorbin
      Not micromosaic. Mosaic requires placing the tiny bits one at a time. That is marquetry. Watch the video on this web page. You will see glimpses of old world
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 8, 2013
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        Not micromosaic. Mosaic requires placing the tiny bits one at a time. That is marquetry.

        Watch the video on this web page. You will see glimpses of old world combined with new. It is a fascinating place, just up the street from me. I have been on a very detailed tour of it and seen how they produce the marquetry. There is also a fun, online, interactive design tool on the website for creating marquetry bands.
        http://www.gurianinstruments.com/top-nav/about-us/

        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Not to be rude, but I don't really think there is a "modern" way to produce that kind of micromosaic. The V&A Summary speaks of cutting the polygons off as slivers from a rod made up of differently cut pieces of wood, and the straight "lines" that fill in between are likewise made from laminations, like plywood, that are sliced off and trimmed. To build up the pattern, the slices are glued to a paper backing, then wrapped around the finished box. The box looks to be simply nailed together.
        > The tools and techniques for this really haven't changed in six or seven centuries, and the last time they became widely popular was during the American Federalist period. Even if machine tools are used for milling and cutting, I can't think of a "modern" machine that would put the slices and slivers together into the mosaic pattern. For some parts of that, hand-cutting would likely be faster.
        >
        >
        > Vels
        >
        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        > From: helen.schultz@...
        > Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:53:33 -0400
        > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > 
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you, Margherita, for the links... I loved the
        > first box... would love to try to build one, but know I just wouldn't have the
        > patience to do it in the period manner <sigh>. Such delicate
        > and intricate fitting and then cutting... just boggles the mind.
        >
        > ~~ Katarina Helene
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From:
        > Margaret Roe
        >
        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:33
        > PM
        > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period
        > Chest
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Ormr,
        >
        >
        > I
        > ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something else.
        > I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.
        >
        >
        > There
        > is one medieval wooden box in the V&A: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/
        > They
        > also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/
        > And
        > two metal boxes of that shape: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O110451/pyx-unknown/ and http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O103096/pyx-unknown/
        >
        >
        > IHTH,
        > Margaret
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)
        >
        >
        > Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
        > Chronicler and Web
        > Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
        > Deputy Chatelaine for the
        > Shire of Spiaggia Levantina
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: lord.ormr
        > <simpson1999@...>
        > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013
        > 7:28 PM
        > Subject:
        > [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box.
        > I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box
        > or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
        >
        > If
        > anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly
        > grateful.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Ormr
        >
      • karincorbin
        Getting the most of your built up block of sticks, watch this video. The Japanese have been making this intricate type of work for a very long time. No waste
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 8, 2013
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          Getting the most of your built up block of sticks, watch this video. The Japanese have been making this intricate type of work for a very long time. No waste method of cutting off the joined up sticks. See the video in the link.

          http://youtu.be/rxJbjpxGNbQ

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Vels inn Viggladi <velsthe1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Not to be rude, but I don't really think there is a "modern" way to produce that kind of micromosaic. The V&A Summary speaks of cutting the polygons off as slivers from a rod made up of differently cut pieces of wood, and the straight "lines" that fill in between are likewise made from laminations, like plywood, that are sliced off and trimmed. To build up the pattern, the slices are glued to a paper backing, then wrapped around the finished box. The box looks to be simply nailed together.
          > The tools and techniques for this really haven't changed in six or seven centuries, and the last time they became widely popular was during the American Federalist period. Even if machine tools are used for milling and cutting, I can't think of a "modern" machine that would put the slices and slivers together into the mosaic pattern. For some parts of that, hand-cutting would likely be faster.
          >
          >
          > Vels
          >
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          > From: helen.schultz@...
          > Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:53:33 -0400
          > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > 
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you, Margherita, for the links... I loved the
          > first box... would love to try to build one, but know I just wouldn't have the
          > patience to do it in the period manner <sigh>. Such delicate
          > and intricate fitting and then cutting... just boggles the mind.
          >
          > ~~ Katarina Helene
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From:
          > Margaret Roe
          >
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:33
          > PM
          > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period
          > Chest
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Ormr,
          >
          >
          > I
          > ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something else.
          > I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.
          >
          >
          > There
          > is one medieval wooden box in the V&A: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/
          > They
          > also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/
          > And
          > two metal boxes of that shape: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O110451/pyx-unknown/ and http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O103096/pyx-unknown/
          >
          >
          > IHTH,
          > Margaret
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)
          >
          >
          > Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
          > Chronicler and Web
          > Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
          > Deputy Chatelaine for the
          > Shire of Spiaggia Levantina
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: lord.ormr
          > <simpson1999@...>
          > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013
          > 7:28 PM
          > Subject:
          > [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box.
          > I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box
          > or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
          >
          > If
          > anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly
          > grateful.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Ormr
          >
        • Vels inn Viggladi
          ... Getting the most of your built up block of sticks, watch this video. The Japanese have been making this intricate type of work for a very long time. No
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 9, 2013
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            > From: karincorbin@...
            > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 06:34:55 +0000
            > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Period Chest
            >
            >
            Getting the most of your built up block of sticks, watch this video. The Japanese have been making this intricate type of work for a very long time. No waste method of cutting off the joined up sticks. See the video in the link.
            >
            > http://youtu.be/rxJbjpxGNbQ
            >

            Interesting video and technique. That's not quite how this kind of piece was or could be produced, however.

            From the description on the V&A website:
            "The design on this fragmentary ten-sided casket consists of an interlacing geometric pattern based on eight-pointed stars. Green stars are set at the heart of an intricate mosaic of minute squares and rhomboids, of different-coloured woods and bone, both in its natural colour and stained green with copper compounds. In the places where the decoration is missing, we can see that it was stuck directly to the surface of the wood, and that each tiny element was individually attached in the manner of a mosaic.
            "This decorative technique was a characteristic of woodwork made in Islamic Spain during the Nasrid period (1238-1492). The technique is called taracea in Spanish, deriving from the Arabic word tarsi‘, meaning ‘incrustation’. "

            And from the 'More Information' tab on the same page:
            "The geometric decoration on this casket is only 1.5mm thick. Before being glued in place, it was composed on paper, traces of which are visible where losses have occurred.The design consists of at least seven pre-formed motifs, made using the sliced-bundle technique (see right). Tiny gaps are filled individually. [01/12/2012]"

            The geometric patterns applied to the surface of this box are quite a bit more intricate than what is being produced in the Japanese method that was referenced. And as said before, other than in stock-prep for the individual elements, there has been little change to how this kind of decoration can be produced since it's inception.

            This appears to be one of those cases where there are no "modern" short-cuts.



            Vels




          • gloerke
            Hi, I have an image of a small medieval octagon chest from Cologne, Germany at my blogpost http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html. It
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 9, 2013
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              Hi,

              I have an image of a small medieval octagon chest from Cologne, Germany at my blogpost http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html. It is made from ivory, but with current legislation you better make it from other material ;)

              Marijn

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "lord.ormr" <simpson1999@...> wrote:
              >
              > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
              >
              > If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly grateful.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Ormr
              >
            • lord.ormr
              These are awesome. I am not sure I can do the first patterned one, as I would have no idea how to accomplish it. I am really intrigued by the etched/foiled
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 9, 2013
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                These are awesome. I am not sure I can do the first patterned one, as I would have no idea how to accomplish it. I am really intrigued by the etched/foiled glass. The box construction would not be too difficult and I am going to play with the foil etching and see if that is something I can figure out.

                I knew someone in this group would have some examples.

                I did find some examples that were carved bone/ivory that I might try to do in carved wood. It (and other examples of other period boxes/chests/etc) was found on http://www.larsdatter.com/boxes-boneivory.htm.

                It also had an example of an inlay box: http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/O0008573.html

                Some awesome items on this site.

                I would still like some different ideas, so pleas post if you have some other resources.

                Thanks everyone for thier input so far.

                Ormr

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Margaret Roe <mlysett@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ormr,
                >
                > I ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something else.  I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.
                >
                > There is one medieval wooden box in the V&A: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/
                > They also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/
                > And two metal boxes of that shape: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O110451/pyx-unknown/%c3%82%c2%a0and%c3%82%c2%a0http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O103096/pyx-unknown/
                >
                > IHTH,
                > Margaret
                >
                >  
                > THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)
                >
                >
                > Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
                > Chronicler and Web Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
                > Deputy Chatelaine for the Shire of Spiaggia Levantina
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: lord.ormr <simpson1999@...>
                > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:28 PM
                > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
                >
                >
                >  
                > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
                >
                > If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly grateful.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Ormr
                >
              • lord.ormr
                Yeah, the Ivory octagon box is absoluetely beautiful. It was also linked from the other site I just posted, and had a few other angle shots to get the whole
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 9, 2013
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                  Yeah, the Ivory octagon box is absoluetely beautiful. It was also linked from the other site I just posted, and had a few other angle shots to get the whole picture.

                  Thank you for posting your pictures. these boxes are giving me more and more ideas for my wood carving as well. guess I will need to add more things to my project list.

                  Ormr

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "gloerke" <gloerke@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > I have an image of a small medieval octagon chest from Cologne, Germany at my blogpost http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html. It is made from ivory, but with current legislation you better make it from other material ;)
                  >
                  > Marijn
                  >
                  > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "lord.ormr" <simpson1999@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
                  > >
                  > > If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly grateful.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > Ormr
                  > >
                  >
                • Hall, Hayward
                  http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html I find it fascinating the lack of “communication” if you will between the carved bone
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 12, 2013
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                    http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html

                     

                    I find it fascinating the lack of “communication” if you will between the carved bone panels and the bronze strapping.  I see this rather frequently.  Was the strapping added later?  Was there simply a division of labor so much so that there was little to no planning?  Or, was the mindset just different in that it didn’t matter if some of the carving got covered up because it wasn’t as precious as it would be today?

                     

                    Guillaume

                     

                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Roe
                    Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:34 AM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

                     




                    Ormr,

                     

                    I ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something else.  I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.

                     

                    There is one medieval wooden box in the V&A: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/

                    They also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/

                     

                    IHTH,

                    Margaret

                     

                     

                    THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)

                    Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
                    Chronicler and Web Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
                    Deputy Chatelaine for the Shire of Spiaggia Levantina


                    From: lord.ormr <simpson1999@...>
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:28 PM
                    Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest

                     

                     

                    Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.

                    If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly grateful.

                    Thanks,

                    Ormr

                     




                  • Justin Crouch
                    Hi, I m Leonardus from the Calontir area (Technically live on the Mississippi on the Midrealm side, but started in Calontir at college), and I joined a week or
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 12, 2013
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                      Hi, I'm Leonardus from the Calontir area (Technically live on the
                      Mississippi on the Midrealm side, but started in Calontir at college),
                      and I joined a week or so ago, and have been lurking. Figured I'd
                      introduce myself prior to joining the conversation.

                      @Guillaume

                      Lovely pictures on that link you posted. And I do see what you mean
                      about the lack of flow between the carvings and the braces on some of
                      the pieces. Looking at the first box, I was going to say it looked to
                      be added on later, probably the box was falling apart and they decided
                      to throw the braces on. However, looking at some of the lower ones, it
                      seems some of them were planned around where the braces would be. The
                      small casket with the devices on it, doesn't have that though as the
                      braces run right through the shield.

                      Having worked in theatre, and similar things have happened between
                      departments, I want to say (in my mundane way of thinking) it's a mix
                      of all three. I do know some pieces in theatre get communicated well
                      (when talking props/furniture/set building) and it works with each
                      other, this is generally the case when the same person does it all.
                      But if one person did the carving, and then sent it off to someone
                      else to do the bracings, it's likely they didn't take into account the
                      location of where the braces would need to be and over-decorated the
                      piece. And when it came to the point of the 'functional' aspect, it
                      was like..."well we don't WANT to cover it up, but we don't have much
                      choice." That sentiment I've seen often in my theatre background.

                      BUTTT that's just my two cents, so I may be wrong entirely. But if I
                      had to guess...I'd say a mix of added later, poor communication
                      between multiple builders and then some that work beautifully with
                      each other.

                      LeO

                      On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Hall, Hayward <hallh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > http://thomasguild.blogspot.nl/2011/12/kolner-minnekastchen.html
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I find it fascinating the lack of “communication” if you will between the
                      > carved bone panels and the bronze strapping. I see this rather frequently.
                      > Was the strapping added later? Was there simply a division of labor so much
                      > so that there was little to no planning? Or, was the mindset just different
                      > in that it didn’t matter if some of the carving got covered up because it
                      > wasn’t as precious as it would be today?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Guillaume
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Roe
                      > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:34 AM
                      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ormr,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I ran across a few of these earlier this year while looking for something
                      > else. I remember that the V&A had a few 8-sided boxes.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > There is one medieval wooden box in the V&A:
                      > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O369842/box-unknown/
                      >
                      > They also have a second wooden box from the early 17th century:
                      > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O301244/casket/
                      >
                      > And two metal boxes of that shape:
                      > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O110451/pyx-unknown/ and
                      > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O103096/pyx-unknown/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > IHTH,
                      >
                      > Margaret
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > THL Margherita Battistina (Margaret Roe)
                      >
                      > Dean of the School of European Dance, Pennsic 42
                      > Chronicler and Web Minister, L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse
                      > Deputy Chatelaine for the Shire of Spiaggia Levantina
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: lord.ormr <simpson1999@...>
                      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:28 PM
                      > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Period Chest
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Looking for some reference or examples of a period octagon chest or box. I
                      > have found some architecture and painings or images of octagon but not a box
                      > or chest. Google and Bing are just ticking me off at this point.
                      >
                      > If anyone would have somewhere to go to look for tis, I would be eternaly
                      > grateful.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Ormr
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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