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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Two hand saws

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  • Sean Powell
    Rip-saw or cross-cut saw? The amount of offset varies but all saws should have one. As it is 42 it is obviously for rough-cutting which means the offset will
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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      Rip-saw or cross-cut saw? The amount of offset varies but all saws should have one. As it is 42" it is obviously for rough-cutting which means the offset will be higher. Also for cutting green wood you want the offset to be higher. Factory cross-cut saws run a combined offset of 1.4-1.6 times blade width. Not certain about rip saws. You really can't do more then 2.0 unless you do a wavy offset of every 3rd tooth is centered. I smaller offset means it will track straighter... if the offset is equal to both sides. A larger offset is easier to re-direct a crooked blade (like a band-saw).
       
      Luck!
      Sean


      On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 7:35 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
       

      I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.

      Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.

      One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.

      Gavin


    • Antonia di Lorenzo
      It sounds like you need to offset the teeth with a saw setting tool. This is the third step in sharpening a saw. Step 1 = filing tops of teeth so all are at
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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        It sounds like you need to offset the teeth with a saw setting tool. This is the third step in sharpening a saw. Step 1 = filing tops of teeth so all are at the same level. Step 2 = filing the V in between the teeth to make each tooth sharp. Step 3 = setting the teeth (bending them to create a kerf). There are some excellent videos on youtube about how to sharpen and set a saw. Lee Valley tools sells saw sharpening files. Saw setting tools only seem to to be available second hand.
      • Geirfold
        Another thing that might help is waxing the blade.
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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          Another thing that might help is waxing the blade.

          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Antonia di Lorenzo" <antonia.sca@...> wrote:
          >
          > It sounds like you need to offset the teeth with a saw setting tool. This is the third step in sharpening a saw. Step 1 = filing tops of teeth so all are at the same level. Step 2 = filing the V in between the teeth to make each tooth sharp. Step 3 = setting the teeth (bending them to create a kerf). There are some excellent videos on youtube about how to sharpen and set a saw. Lee Valley tools sells saw sharpening files. Saw setting tools only seem to to be available second hand.
          >
        • Tom Immke
          These are all good ideas but first make sure your fence is square with your blade and make sure the blade is square with the table. Seems like it should be
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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            These are all good ideas but first make sure your fence is square with your blade and make sure the blade is square with the table.   Seems like it should be automatic its not.  


            On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:35 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
             

            I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.

            Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.

            One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.

            Gavin


          • Tom Immke
            oops. sorry read the thread wrong....
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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              oops.  sorry read the thread wrong....



              On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Tom Immke <wizardsearth@...> wrote:
              These are all good ideas but first make sure your fence is square with your blade and make sure the blade is square with the table.   Seems like it should be automatic its not.  


              On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:35 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
               

              I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.

              Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.

              One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.

              Gavin



            • gavinkilkenny
              mm.. no table involved ;) I m not even going to think about the table required for an oak log 20 feet long and 2 feet in diameter, not to mention the hoist
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                mm.. no table involved ;) I'm not even going to think about the table required for an oak log 20 feet long and 2 feet in diameter, not to mention the hoist needed to put it on the table ;)
                Not sure how I would go about mounting a fence in this application either ;)



                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tom Immke <wizardsearth@...> wrote:
                >
                > These are all good ideas but first make sure your fence is square with your
                > blade and make sure the blade is square with the table. Seems like it
                > should be automatic its not.
                >
                >
                > On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:35 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...>wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs.
                > > Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of
                > > the teeth.
                > >
                > > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and
                > > feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                > >
                > > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth-
                > > at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                > >
                > > Gavin
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Wolf
                VERY carefully..... ;) ... Not sure how I would go about mounting a fence in this application either ;)
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                  VERY carefully..... ;)

                  --- On Wed, 12/26/12, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:

                  Not sure how I would go about mounting a fence in this application either ;)

                • frode_kettilsson
                  Hi all, Years ago (before Al Gore) I had a pair of setting pliers, and I d had little luck finding new ones. Happily they are becoming available again! Not
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                    Hi all,
                    Years ago (before Al Gore) I had a pair of setting pliers, and I'd had little luck finding new ones.  Happily they are becoming available
                    again!  Not common, maybe, but available.  I've found them here;
                    http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Saw-Set-Regular/productinfo/580-6510/
                    http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-SAWSET.XX/Saw_Sets
                    http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/coarsesawset.aspx

                    and this, which was just interesting...
                    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/recreational_trails/publications/fs_publications/02232324/

                    I haven't ordered from any of these folks, but I have heard of a couple of them.
                    Happy setting,
                    Frode



                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Antonia di Lorenzo" <antonia.sca@...> wrote:
                    >
                    ...Lee Valley tools sells saw sharpening files. Saw setting tools only seem to to be available second hand...
                    >

                  • D. Young
                    If anyone is interested in early saws I own the following, the are heavily based on medieval versions (ie, we can take cues). --early kenyon keyhole saw circa
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                      If anyone is interested in early saws I own the following, the are heavily based on medieval versions (ie, we can take cues).

                      --early kenyon keyhole saw circa 1670-1720
                      --early keyhole saw circa 1650-1750 
                      --Dutch saw pistol grip handle circa 1650-1730
                      --several 18th century pistol long saw
                      --1815 long saw
                      --and numerous cross cut logging saws and 19th century saws

                      Notably there are only a handful of the first mentioned saws in the world so Im happy to discuss details.   I searched for these for years.

                      LMK if interested.

                      Cheers
                      Drew



                      Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions

                           Custom Commissions Welcome....!

                      www.partsandtechnical.com
                      (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                       



                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      From: dukegavin@...
                      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 00:35:06 +0000
                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Two hand saws

                       
                      I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.

                      Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.

                      One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.

                      Gavin


                    • Dave Ordway
                      Might I suggest a heavy table perhaps made of hand sawn 8/4 Oak. You could use the planks from your newly sawn log.......wait a minute......you need a table
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                        Might I suggest a heavy table perhaps made of hand sawn 8/4 Oak.  You could use the planks from your newly sawn log.......wait a minute......you need a table to do that.  I will have to ponder this dilemma further;  which came first, the table or the board?  Ouch, I just hurt my brain.  Where's my beer?
                         
                        Lagerstein
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:36 AM
                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Two hand saws

                         

                        mm.. no table involved ;) I'm not even going to think about the table required for an oak log 20 feet long and 2 feet in diameter, not to mention the hoist needed to put it on the table ;)
                        Not sure how I would go about mounting a fence in this application either ;)

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tom Immke <wizardsearth@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > These are all good ideas but first make sure your fence is square with your
                        > blade and make sure the blade is square with the table. Seems like it
                        > should be automatic its not.
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:35 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...>wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs.
                        > > Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of
                        > > the teeth.
                        > >
                        > > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and
                        > > feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                        > >
                        > > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth-
                        > > at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                        > >
                        > > Gavin
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                      • Haraldr Bassi (yahoo)
                        I concur with the others who discussed whether it was a crosscut or rip saw. I also concur with the advice to sharpen the teeth before worrying about setting
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                          I concur with the others who discussed whether it was a crosscut or rip saw. I also concur with
                          the advice to sharpen the teeth before worrying about setting the teeth. Saw sets (the pliers to
                          move the teeth) are often available at flea markets up in the northeast, where you are and where
                          I was from before moving to Texas.

                          A basic set on a crosscut saw should take care of it binding on you when crosscutting a large
                          log, provided there isn't any pressure on the end of the log that would close the saw kerf back up.

                          For ripping, you may need to add some slim wooden wedges to the log as you saw it's length to
                          keep the kerf open. Grain twist might cause the log to bind back on itself as you rip it by
                          hand. Also, the length of time it will take will change the dryness rate between the current
                          cutting area and what was recently cut.

                          You will want to create some wooden X saw bucks where you can support the log so the blade can
                          rip down it's length vertically. I seem to recall seeing some designs that involved a long "leg"
                          of the X frame that would be used to lever the log up into position. You will probably need
                          three of them, one to re-position the support on the other side of the saw when you get close to
                          the saw buck.

                          Have fun with your new saw and your 20' log you are playing with :)

                          Haraldr Bassi, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (Formerly hire of Frosted Hills, East)





                          On 12/25/12 6:35 PM, gavinkilkenny wrote:
                          > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.
                          >
                          > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                          >
                          > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                          >
                          > Gavin
                          >
                        • gavinkilkenny
                          On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don t know. The tooth pattern is one I haven t seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don t know
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                            On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don't know. The tooth pattern is one I haven't seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don't know whether it's intended for ripping or crosscutting.

                            The link posted to the National Forest/Park Service showed a picture of a saw with the tooth pattern mine has. Deep, on the order of an inch and a half, with arched spaces between pairs of teeth.

                            Heraldry- not just one 20 foot log. ;) I had 11 trees taken down in the spring. Made me feel very smart when Sandy came through and none of them could fall on the house because they were already down.
                          • gavinkilkenny
                            On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don t know. The tooth pattern is one I haven t seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don t know
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                              On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don't know. The tooth pattern is one I haven't seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don't know whether it's intended for ripping or crosscutting.

                              The link posted to the National Forest/Park Service showed a picture of a saw with the tooth pattern mine has. Deep, on the order of an inch and a half, with arched spaces between pairs of teeth.

                              Heraldry- not just one 20 foot log. ;) I had 11 trees taken down in the spring. Made me feel very smart when Sandy came through and none of them could fall on the house because they were already down.
                            • Sean Powell
                              Cross-cut saws have teeth like 3 sided pyramids. The are flat on the outside with a knife edge front and back, generally they have a more vertical slope on the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                                Cross-cut saws have teeth like 3 sided pyramids. The are flat on the outside with a knife edge front and back, generally they have a more vertical slope on the pull and a shallower slope on the push. They cut like you were repeatedly cutting 2 lines accross the grain with a pair of razor blades and clearing the space between the blades. Rip saws have teeth like chisels and from the side they look more like shark-fins rather then mountains or pyramids. They cut like you were chiseling a small piece out of the end grain and then setting in a new chisel a little deeper and offset alternately left or right. (Hey I learned something from watching Roy Underhill. WOO HOO!)

                                Here is a good article I stumbled across.
                                 
                                In general cross-cuts do poor jobs ripping and ripers do poor jobs cross-cutting. Take a close look yourself or post a picture and we'll see if we can identify it for you. You wouldn't use a felling ade as a splitting maul or a splitting maul as an axe. It wouldn't do the job well.

                                They make combination 10" diameter cross/rip blade for table saws but I tend to avoid them. I don't know if they make them for hand-saws.
                                 
                                luck!
                                Sean


                                On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 6:17 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
                                 

                                On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don't know. The tooth pattern is one I haven't seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don't know whether it's intended for ripping or crosscutting.

                                The link posted to the National Forest/Park Service showed a picture of a saw with the tooth pattern mine has. Deep, on the order of an inch and a half, with arched spaces between pairs of teeth.

                                Heraldry- not just one 20 foot log. ;) I had 11 trees taken down in the spring. Made me feel very smart when Sandy came through and none of them could fall on the house because they were already down.


                              • gavinkilkenny
                                Mutter. Auto-mistake doesn t like your name, Haraldr ;) sorry about that.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                  Mutter. Auto-mistake doesn't like your name, Haraldr ;) sorry about that.

                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "gavinkilkenny" <dukegavin@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On the question of crosscut versus rip- I don't know. The tooth pattern is one I haven't seen on anything but these large logging saws and I don't know whether it's intended for ripping or crosscutting.
                                  >
                                  > The link posted to the National Forest/Park Service showed a picture of a saw with the tooth pattern mine has. Deep, on the order of an inch and a half, with arched spaces between pairs of teeth.
                                  >
                                  > Heraldry- not just one 20 foot log. ;) I had 11 trees taken down in the spring. Made me feel very smart when Sandy came through and none of them could fall on the house because they were already down.
                                  >
                                • Geirfold
                                  Can you post pics of them?
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                    Can you post pics of them?

                                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "D. Young" <furnaceplans@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > If anyone is interested in early saws I own the following, the are heavily based on medieval versions (ie, we can take cues).
                                    >
                                    > --early kenyon keyhole saw circa 1670-1720
                                    > --early keyhole saw circa 1650-1750
                                    > --Dutch saw pistol grip handle circa 1650-1730
                                    > --several 18th century pistol long saw
                                    > --1815 long saw
                                    > --and numerous cross cut logging saws and 19th century saws
                                    >
                                    > Notably there are only a handful of the first mentioned saws in the world so Im happy to discuss details. I searched for these for years.
                                    >
                                    > LMK if interested.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers
                                    > Drew
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
                                    >
                                    > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
                                    > www.partsandtechnical.com
                                    >
                                    > (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: dukegavin@...
                                    > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 00:35:06 +0000
                                    > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Two hand saws
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                                    >
                                    > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Gavin
                                    >
                                  • D. Young
                                    Yeah sure. Give me a day or so. In the meantime most of my saw pics and early tool pics actually are on my facebook group page. Just faster to upload.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 28, 2012
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                                      Yeah sure.   Give me a day or so.   In the meantime most of my saw pics and early tool pics actually are on my facebook group page.   Just faster to upload.   Most people have FB accounts so swing by if you get the chance.   Ill upload here this week.



                                      cheers
                                      Drew 



                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: hammered_shamrock@...
                                      Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 14:33:33 +0000
                                      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: my saw collection

                                       
                                      Can you post pics of them?

                                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "D. Young" <furnaceplans@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > If anyone is interested in early saws I own the following, the are heavily based on medieval versions (ie, we can take cues).
                                      >
                                      > --early kenyon keyhole saw circa 1670-1720
                                      > --early keyhole saw circa 1650-1750
                                      > --Dutch saw pistol grip handle circa 1650-1730
                                      > --several 18th century pistol long saw
                                      > --1815 long saw
                                      > --and numerous cross cut logging saws and 19th century saws
                                      >
                                      > Notably there are only a handful of the first mentioned saws in the world so Im happy to discuss details. I searched for these for years.
                                      >
                                      > LMK if interested.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      > Drew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Fine Armour and Historical Reproductions
                                      >
                                      > Custom Commissions Welcome....!
                                      > www.partsandtechnical.com
                                      >
                                      > (Well Formed Munitions Catalog Coming This Spring)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: dukegavin@...
                                      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 00:35:06 +0000
                                      > Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Two hand saws
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Gavin
                                      >


                                    • K
                                      Hi; saws need set to make the Kerf (slot that the saw cuts) wider than the thickness of the blade, Set is the amount the teeth are bent sideways after
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                        Hi;
                                        saws need "set" to make the "Kerf" (slot that the saw cuts) wider than the thickness of the blade, "Set" is the amount the teeth are bent sideways after sharpening. This is done with a "saw setting tool" or a "saw set".
                                        logging saws are all coarse crosscut saws.
                                        see Paul Hasluck's "The Handyman's Book" for description of saws and sharpening.
                                        have fun!

                                        K
                                      • i_griffen
                                        Garvin Having experience sharpening and setting these Saws. It sounds to me there is no set in the teeth and the raker teeth are too long and needs to br taken
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 31, 2012
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                                          Garvin

                                          Having experience sharpening and setting these Saws. It sounds to me there is no set in the teeth and the raker teeth are too long and needs to br taken down.

                                          Method to sharpen Saw, Measure height of Rakers (the rakers cleans the kerf as you are cutting)to tooth height. Sharpen teeth, both sides. Recheck the profile of the raker to tooth, the raker should be slightly shorter than the tooth. Once this is done then set the teeth to make the kerf.

                                          When I used to sharpen Bucking and falling saws, I clamped therm to a 2x6 then to a bench to keepthe teeth upright.then I would use a triangler file or a flat file.

                                          Iain Griffen

                                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "gavinkilkenny" <dukegavin@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I bought a 42 inch saw off eBay and have been giving it some test runs. Seems to be a problem with it binding as soon as it gets past the depth of the teeth.
                                          >
                                          > Wondering if there is any advice from the crew about proper care and feeding of such tools, and any tricks to their effective use.
                                          >
                                          > One thought I'm having is that it may need a bit of offset on the teeth- at present it looks to be dead straight, with no offset.
                                          >
                                          > Gavin
                                          >
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