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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Interested in making my own scribes/marking-gauges.

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  • bsrlee
    In some of his early shows, Roy shows that the pins are in fact sharpened to a tiny blade after they are inserted. Leaving a bit of the blunt end sticking up
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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      In some of his early shows, Roy shows that the 'pins' are in fact
      sharpened to a tiny blade after they are inserted. Leaving a bit of the
      blunt end sticking up means you can tap it through some more if the
      point becomes too short. Also remember they were using effectively 'cut
      nails' for these points, drawn wire for pins was much more expensive
      before the 19th Century.

      Some Japanese gauges are still made without screws & have a small
      cutting blade - the blade has to be 'double beveled' to avoid being
      pushed or pulled off course when marking parallel to the grain.

      Another good source of hand tool techniques & ideas are Chris Schwarz'
      blogs at Popular Woodworking (going back several years) and now also at
      Lost Arts Press.

      regards
      Brusi of Orkney
      Rowany/Lochac


      On 02-Oct-12 11:33 PM, gavinkilkenny wrote:
      > http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/another-mortise-gauge/
      >
      > It's a oouple of pictures and some discussion of a very simple mortising gauge. Worth looking at, if only as another example of just how simple these things can, and should, be.
      >
      > I would not think a razor knife blade made sense for the job. I've not seen a single example where the marking scribe was an edge rather than a point and I think there's something to that. You want to drag through, tearing up the wood to create your mark, and not being steered by grain. A short length of rod with a point does this better than an edge. The edge may be very stiff on one axis, but is more easily laterally deflected than the rod.
      >
      > At least, that's how I see it. Plus, you just push the nail through, or screw the screw in, while mounting an edge, as you're finding, is not so simple.
      >
      > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "sean14powell"<sean14powell@...> wrote:
      >> Hello,
      >>
      >> Primarily I'm a power-tool user but with my biggest tools in storage I've been doing more small projects with hand tools and it's a different sort of fun. I've also been spending a lot of time watching Roy Underhill and The Woodwright shop. A lot of joinery work seems much easier using scribes to mark locations then a pencil and it's a wonderfully simple tool so I want to make one for myself but I'm curious how medieval versions held the marking tip before metal screws came into common usage and if there are better cutters then sharpened nails.
      >>
      >> This design just wedges the nail in place.
      >> http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/WD324627.pdf
      >>
      >> In an ideal world I would think a piece of snap-off disposible razor knife would make a perfect tip but I can't think of how to anchor it without modern equipment.
      >>
      >> Anyone have any thoughts or ideas?
      >>
      >> Sean Powell
      >>
      >
      >
      >
    • Sean Powell
      Well that s just stupid-simple. Why haven t I made one of these before? Sean
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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        Well that's just stupid-simple. Why haven't I made one of these before?
         
        Sean

        On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:33 AM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
         

        http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/another-mortise-gauge/

        It's a oouple of pictures and some discussion of a very simple mortising gauge. Worth looking at, if only as another example of just how simple these things can, and should, be.

        I would not think a razor knife blade made sense for the job. I've not seen a single example where the marking scribe was an edge rather than a point and I think there's something to that. You want to drag through, tearing up the wood to create your mark, and not being steered by grain. A short length of rod with a point does this better than an edge. The edge may be very stiff on one axis, but is more easily laterally deflected than the rod.

        At least, that's how I see it. Plus, you just push the nail through, or screw the screw in, while mounting an edge, as you're finding, is not so simple.

      • Peter Ellison
        I like this design a little better, there is a PDF of the article on the page that walks through step by step making them.  I have made several, they only
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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          I like this design a little better, there is a PDF of the article on the page that walks through step by step making them.  I have made several, they only take a limited number of tools so I think they make a good gateway project into wood working.

          http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/hand-tools-techniques/mystery_of_the_marking_gauge

          The PDF talks about sharpening the point more knife like.

          As a side note, there is a marking gauge from the Mary Rose fine, it has a wedge, and it is a pain in the neck to make.  Instead of square the shaft is shaped like a hotel in Monopoly.  So is the mortice ...

          I can't recall who had the idea (so in other words not me) to use a saber saw blade, grind off the teeth and make that into a knife and then hold it into the end of the scriber arm with a small wedge.

          There is a process to using the marking gauge or a cutting gauge.  The first mark you make is very light, then a little harder, and finally press harder.  That will allow you better control over the gauge.  I used to suffer from wandering line, till I took slightly longer, others seem to make good marks with a single pass ...


          Peter


          > Hello,
          >
          > Primarily I'm a power-tool user but with my biggest tools in storage I've
          > been doing more small projects with hand tools and it's a different sort
          > of fun. I've also been spending a lot of time watching Roy Underhill and
          > The Woodwright shop. A lot of joinery work seems much easier using scribes
          > to mark locations then a pencil and it's a wonderfully simple tool so I
          > want to make one for myself but I'm curious how medieval versions held the
          > marking tip before metal screws came into common usage and if there are
          > better cutters then sharpened nails.
          >
          > This design just wedges the nail in place.
          > http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/WD324627.pdf
          >
          > In an ideal world I would think a piece of snap-off disposible razor knife
          > would make a perfect tip but I can't think of how to anchor it without
          > modern equipment.
          >
          > Anyone have any thoughts or ideas?
          >
          > Sean Powell
          >
          >
        • karincorbin
          I put my 8 year old woodworking student to the task of making a marking gauge. If he can do it so can any one of you. His biggest problem so far is lack of
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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            I put my 8 year old woodworking student to the task of making a marking gauge. If he can do it so can any one of you. His biggest problem so far is lack of hand strength therefore his control on cuts is not as good as it will be in a few years. But his joy at doing the work is unsurpassed.

            Karin

            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Sean Powell <sean14powell@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well that's just stupid-simple. Why haven't I made one of these before?
            >
            > Sean
            >
            > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:33 AM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/another-mortise-gauge/
            > >
            > > It's a oouple of pictures and some discussion of a very simple mortising
            > > gauge. Worth looking at, if only as another example of just how simple
            > > these things can, and should, be.
            > >
            > > I would not think a razor knife blade made sense for the job. I've not
            > > seen a single example where the marking scribe was an edge rather than a
            > > point and I think there's something to that. You want to drag through,
            > > tearing up the wood to create your mark, and not being steered by grain. A
            > > short length of rod with a point does this better than an edge. The edge
            > > may be very stiff on one axis, but is more easily laterally deflected than
            > > the rod.
            > >
            > > At least, that's how I see it. Plus, you just push the nail through, or
            > > screw the screw in, while mounting an edge, as you're finding, is not so
            > > simple.
            > >
            >
          • Karl Newman
            Knife blade = Bad Idea. the blade will flex then try to track the grain. a stiff pin sharpened to an oval chisel tip is best the Pin is just a nail driven
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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              Knife blade = Bad Idea. the blade will flex then try to track the grain.
               a stiff pin sharpened to an oval chisel tip is best
              the "Pin" is just a nail driven thru the beam
              K
              I have about a dozen different scribe designs I could put up on sketch up if anyone were interested.
              I commonly use (have on my bench) 3 scribes at any given time for any given project. the design that you refered to is an excellent one.
            • Barekr Silfri
              I learned how to make them by watching this: http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2010/11/episode-29/ YIS, Bear
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 2, 2012
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                I learned how to make them by watching this:

                YIS,
                Bear

                On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Karl Newman <kaisaerpren@...> wrote:
                 

                Knife blade = Bad Idea. the blade will flex then try to track the grain.
                 a stiff pin sharpened to an oval chisel tip is best
                the "Pin" is just a nail driven thru the beam
                K
                I have about a dozen different scribe designs I could put up on sketch up if anyone were interested.
                I commonly use (have on my bench) 3 scribes at any given time for any given project. the design that you refered to is an excellent one.


              • gloerke
                Hi, I have made a marking gauge using an article in Fine Woodworking magazine. I have scanned the article and added it in the files section as Make
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 4, 2012
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                  Hi,

                  I have made a marking gauge using an article in Fine Woodworking magazine. I have scanned the article and added it in the files section as "Make gauge.pdf". Also in the photo section under Thomasguild I have uploaded some images of my gauge. I made the marking gauge several years ago from walnut, the marking pin is a nail which I have later given a "knife edge". The photo still shows the nail still having the point (which you can also use for marking).

                  In my photo section there is also a scan of the marking gauges from the Mary Rose shipwreck (1548) taken from the book "before the mast. life and death on the mary rose" which I just had borrowed from the royal library this week ;)

                  I hope this will be of interest and help making your marking gauge.

                  Marijn
                  St. Thomasguild
                  (thomasguild.blogspot.nl)

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "sean14powell" <sean14powell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello,
                  >
                  > Primarily I'm a power-tool user but with my biggest tools in storage I've been doing more small projects with hand tools and it's a different sort of fun. I've also been spending a lot of time watching Roy Underhill and The Woodwright shop. A lot of joinery work seems much easier using scribes to mark locations then a pencil and it's a wonderfully simple tool so I want to make one for myself but I'm curious how medieval versions held the marking tip before metal screws came into common usage and if there are better cutters then sharpened nails.
                  >
                  > This design just wedges the nail in place.
                  > http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/WD324627.pdf
                  >
                  > In an ideal world I would think a piece of snap-off disposible razor knife would make a perfect tip but I can't think of how to anchor it without modern equipment.
                  >
                  > Anyone have any thoughts or ideas?
                  >
                  > Sean Powell
                  >
                • conradh@efn.org
                  ... Think wedges. Either the wedging of the cutter directly into the wood (such as a nail you then sharpen) or a separate wedge such as holds a plane iron.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 14, 2012
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                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > Primarily I'm a power-tool user but with my biggest tools in storage I've
                    > been doing more small projects with hand tools and it's a different sort
                    > of fun. I've also been spending a lot of time watching Roy Underhill and
                    > The Woodwright shop. A lot of joinery work seems much easier using scribes
                    > to mark locations then a pencil and it's a wonderfully simple tool so I
                    > want to make one for myself but I'm curious how medieval versions held the
                    > marking tip before metal screws came into common usage and if there are
                    > better cutters then sharpened nails.
                    >
                    > This design just wedges the nail in place.
                    > http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/WD324627.pdf
                    >
                    > In an ideal world I would think a piece of snap-off disposible razor knife
                    > would make a perfect tip but I can't think of how to anchor it without
                    > modern equipment.
                    >
                    Think wedges. Either the wedging of the cutter directly into the wood
                    (such as a nail you then sharpen) or a separate wedge such as holds a
                    plane iron. No screws required
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