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Re: [MedievalSawdust] Tapered mortise and tenon

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  • James Daily
    Depending on what size of mortise you need, just how tapered they need to be, and how many different sizes you need, then a spoon bit or two could be somewhat
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 27, 2012
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      Depending on what size of mortise you need, just how tapered they need to be, and how many different sizes you need, then a spoon bit or two could be somewhat cheaper.  Lee Valley's are cheaper than the ones at Tools for Working Wood.





      On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:59 PM, "gavinkilkenny" <dukegavin@...> wrote:

       

      I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are called for.

      Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable price" version ;)

      Gavin


    • AlbionWood
      Hi Gavin, Wouldn t it be easier to just change the joinery? Certainly cheaper! I don t think those tapered round M&T joints are medieval; in fact I think they
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 27, 2012
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        Hi Gavin,

        Wouldn't it be easier to just change the joinery? Certainly cheaper!

        I don't think those tapered round M&T joints are medieval; in fact I
        think they came about as a result of the tool development. If you're
        making a lot of stick furniture the tools can pay for themselves in
        production, but for one-offs, you're better off modifying the design.

        Alternatively one might cut a tapered mortise with a spoon-bit, and make
        tapered tenons with a drawknife.

        Cheers,
        Tim



        On 9/27/2012 1:59 PM, gavinkilkenny wrote:
        > I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are called for.
        >
        > Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable price" version ;)
        >
        > Gavin
      • Sean Powell
        A camp-mate makes his tables and benches with tapered connections. He drillsto measured depths with a deccreasing series of spade-bits and then files them
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 27, 2012
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          A camp-mate makes his tables and benches with tapered connections. He drillsto measured depths with a deccreasing series of spade-bits and then files them round. The legs he draw-knifes to match a template. It's more crude then the Lee Valley solution but it's probably more historically accurate a construction technique.
           
          I don't have a more reasonable source but the 'pencil-sharpner' plane for leg ends looks like it could be made by hand and I'm inclined to think a reamer could be made with a wood lathe, some god hardwood and commercial cutting blades. Muight be a fun project in itself but not necessarily cheaper.
           
          Sean

          On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:59 PM, gavinkilkenny <dukegavin@...> wrote:
           

          I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are called for.

          Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable price" version ;)

          Gavin


        • bsrlee2@pacific.net.au
          The tapered M&T joints come from wheel making, as do the modern tools from LV - the LV ones are just miniatures relatively. The prices of LV tools are quite
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 27, 2012
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            The tapered M&T joints come from wheel making, as do the modern tools from
            LV - the LV ones are just 'miniatures' relatively. The prices of LV tools
            are quite reasonable, specially once you figure in the time it takes to
            make your own, and they are durable.

            The tapered tennon is made with a 'spail engine' - there are a heap of
            different names depending on location & trade - if you have seen the
            re-issue video's of the Woodwright's shop, Roy shows how to make one in
            one of the early shows. It can also be used to make rake handles and
            similar long round shafts, depending on how you set the cutting blade.

            A tapered hole reamer is used in other medieval trades too, such as for
            making bung holes in barrels as well as wheelwrighting. Big reamers had a
            hardwood body with an inset wedged blade, but it would be well within the
            technology for a tapered all metal tool to be used, I just dont know of
            any surviving ones.

            regards
            Brusi of Orkney
            Rowany/Lochac
            LV tool junkie


            > I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise
            > and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are
            > called for.
            >
            > Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit
            > pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of
            > tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee
            > Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable
            > price" version ;)
            >
            > Gavin
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • gavinkilkenny
            Sean and Brusi, thanks to both of you. Brusi, I didn t know you were a woodworker. For now, I think I ll be trying the approach Sean described, with a
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 28, 2012
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              Sean and Brusi, thanks to both of you. Brusi, I didn't know you were a woodworker.

              For now, I think I'll be trying the approach Sean described, with a variation. I've got bits that will let me do a stepped series of holes and carving gouges that should let me get a decent match on the sweep for smoothing the taper in the hole. And then the drawknife to taper the tenon.

              I have all the parts for attempting that and I tend to be impatient ;)

              And I'll look for that episode of Roy's show. I spent a few hours doing a small marathon a couple of weeks back ;)

              Gavin

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, bsrlee2@... wrote:
              >
              > The tapered M&T joints come from wheel making, as do the modern tools from
              > LV - the LV ones are just 'miniatures' relatively. The prices of LV tools
              > are quite reasonable, specially once you figure in the time it takes to
              > make your own, and they are durable.
              >
              > The tapered tennon is made with a 'spail engine' - there are a heap of
              > different names depending on location & trade - if you have seen the
              > re-issue video's of the Woodwright's shop, Roy shows how to make one in
              > one of the early shows. It can also be used to make rake handles and
              > similar long round shafts, depending on how you set the cutting blade.
              >
              > A tapered hole reamer is used in other medieval trades too, such as for
              > making bung holes in barrels as well as wheelwrighting. Big reamers had a
              > hardwood body with an inset wedged blade, but it would be well within the
              > technology for a tapered all metal tool to be used, I just dont know of
              > any surviving ones.
              >
              > regards
              > Brusi of Orkney
              > Rowany/Lochac
              > LV tool junkie
              >
              >
              > > I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise
              > > and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are
              > > called for.
              > >
              > > Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit
              > > pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of
              > > tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee
              > > Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable
              > > price" version ;)
              > >
              > > Gavin
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • david giles
              for something remotely like what may have been used in medieval times you may try this site.   http://www.greenwoodworking.com/SawSteelTaperedReamerPlans for
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 28, 2012
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                for something remotely like what may have been used in medieval times you may try this site.
                 
              • gavinkilkenny
                I have to say I ve read that article at least four times and I m still having trouble following it ;)
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 28, 2012
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                  I have to say I've read that article at least four times and I'm still having trouble following it ;)

                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, david giles <davidgiles@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > for something remotely like what may have been used in medieval times you may try this site.
                  >  
                  > http://www.greenwoodworking.com/SawSteelTaperedReamerPlans
                  >
                • Karl Newman
                  Sir; check out the reamers here http://chairnotes.blogspot.com/2009/02/making-tapered-reamer-to-suit-your.html they are easily made w/ a wood lathe, they were
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 30, 2012
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                    Sir;
                    check out the reamers here
                    they are easily made w/ a wood lathe, they were designed to be cheap.
                    a piece of very hard wood (rock maple , red or black gum, mine is Osage Orange, hickory, persimmon) . lathed to an appropriate taper (11 deg +-). saw a center slot up to the large dia, cut and file an old saw blade to fit in the slot.
                    so easy anyone (even a caveman, heh) can do it.
                    After making the reamer cut a tapered hole in a scrap, saw it in half and use it as a  "go/no go" gauge.
                    K
                  • Jeffrey Johnson
                    Do you have access to a lathe? Jenny alexander provides info on how-to make a reamer and cutter here: http://www.greenwoodworking.com/ShavingHorsePlans
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 1, 2012
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                      Do you have access to a lathe?

                      Jenny alexander provides info on how-to make a reamer and cutter here:

                      http://www.greenwoodworking.com/ShavingHorsePlans

                      On Sep 27, 2012 4:59 PM, "gavinkilkenny" <dukegavin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are called for.
                      >
                      > Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable price" version ;)
                      >
                      > Gavin
                      >
                      >
                    • gavinkilkenny
                      No lathe yet, although building a springpole variety is on the to-do list. And finally, after looking up compass saw (I had never come across the term...) I
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 1, 2012
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                        No lathe yet, although building a springpole variety is on the to-do list. And finally, after looking up "compass saw" (I had never come across the term...) I get what JA is talking about. Even watching Curtis Buchanan work with one had not cleared it up for me - because I didn't know what the heck a "compass saw" was ..sigh...

                        Gavin

                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Johnson <jljonsn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Do you have access to a lathe?
                        >
                        > Jenny alexander provides info on how-to make a reamer and cutter here:
                        >
                        > http://www.greenwoodworking.com/ShavingHorsePlans
                        >
                        > On Sep 27, 2012 4:59 PM, "gavinkilkenny" <dukegavin@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I'm looking at a couple of projects that call for round tapered mortise and tenon joints. Not particularly difficult, but specialized tools are called for.
                        > >
                        > > Looking around a bit, reamers and tapered tenon cutters seem to be a bit pricey. Wondering if anyone has some suggestions on sourcing this sort of tool at a reasonable price - or maybe just the information that the Lee Valley versions with the accompanying price tags are the "reasonable price" version ;)
                        > >
                        > > Gavin
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • conradh@efn.org
                        ... I ve made one of these, and it wasn t that hard to do; basically a bigger version of a pencil sharpener, in hardwood. ... I believe the wheelwright in the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 25, 2012
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                          Brusi of Orkney wrote:

                          > The tapered tennon is made with a 'spail engine' - there are a heap of
                          > different names depending on location & trade - if you have seen the
                          > re-issue video's of the Woodwright's shop, Roy shows how to make one in
                          > one of the early shows. It can also be used to make rake handles and
                          > similar long round shafts, depending on how you set the cutting blade.

                          I've made one of these, and it wasn't that hard to do; basically a bigger
                          version of a pencil sharpener, in hardwood.

                          >
                          > A tapered hole reamer is used in other medieval trades too, such as for
                          > making bung holes in barrels as well as wheelwrighting. Big reamers had a
                          > hardwood body with an inset wedged blade, but it would be well within the
                          > technology for a tapered all metal tool to be used, I just dont know of
                          > any surviving ones.

                          I believe the wheelwright in the Standartarbuch (mid 16th Century) is
                          shown using a big taper reamer with an all-metal blade--the same kind used
                          into the 19th Century. So they actually did it, at least toward the end
                          of the period.

                          Blacksmiths use a taper reamer that's much simpler: just a tapered strip
                          of high carbon steel, with relief ground on the two edges to make them
                          cut. You can grind one out of an old file or piece of leaf spring,
                          depending on the size you want. I would normalize (heat the tool red-hot
                          after grinding, then allow to cool in air) in the case of the file,
                          because it's very high carbon and the twisting might snap it in use.

                          If you make the reamer first, you can use it to ream the hole in the stail
                          engine/rounder plane/taper cutter/whatever you call it. Then install your
                          blade parallel to the reamed surface of the cone.

                          Ulfhedinn
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