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Period lathe references?

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  • Ron
    So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 23 8:12 PM
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      So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th century references, as far as I can tell. The one in "The Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop" comes from "L'Art du Torneur Mecanecien" by M. Hulot (1775).

      Following up on questions folks asked at Gulf Wars, I'm trying to find out when this type of lathe first appeared. Unfortunately, all the references I've found so far make these huge broad jumps - "Earliest lathes found on Egyptian walls...Spring pole lathes appear about the 10th century...treadle lathes following deVinci's drawing in the 15th century.

      Any ideas on other sources I should pursue? I've found "The history of the lathe to 1850" by Woodbury, and "Technology in the Ancient World" by Knopf.

      Bayard
    • Jim Hart
      Di Vinci drew a fly wheel lathe I think..... On Nook tablet copy and paste options limited..... so you are going to have to look it up youself, sorry ...
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 24 4:47 AM
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        Di Vinci drew a fly wheel lathe I think.....

        On Nook tablet copy and paste options limited..... so you are going to have to look it up youself, sorry


        On Friday, March 23, 2012, Ron <williams@...> wrote:
        >  
        >
        > So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th century references, as far as I can tell. The one in "The Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop" comes from "L'Art du Torneur Mecanecien" by M. Hulot (1775).
        >
        > Following up on questions folks asked at Gulf Wars, I'm trying to find out when this type of lathe first appeared. Unfortunately, all the references I've found so far make these huge broad jumps - "Earliest lathes found on Egyptian walls...Spring pole lathes appear about the 10th century...treadle lathes following deVinci's drawing in the 15th century.
        >
        > Any ideas on other sources I should pursue? I've found "The history of the lathe to 1850" by Woodbury, and "Technology in the Ancient World" by Knopf.
        >
        > Bayard
        >
        >

        --
        Jim Hart
          Conal OhAirt

        Aude Aliquid Digmun - dare something worthy
      • Ralph
        References on period lathes tend to be a little thin. Besides Da Vinci s illustrations, which as I recall are spring-pole and great-wheel lathes. There is a
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 24 8:27 AM
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          References on period lathes tend to be a little thin. Besides Da Vinci's illustrations, which as I recall are spring-pole and great-wheel lathes. There is a photo of a wood cut from the late 1400's of a great-wheel lathe, with offset cogs, doing offset or drunken turning, I saw this (I think) on the Ornamental Turners web-site.

          We know that there was both reciprocal rotation (spring-pole and bow) and continuous rotation (great wheel and treadle) lathes, in use, in various places "in period".

          Robin Wood's books "Wooden Bowl" contains examples of period and post-period turning. For lathe examples, only has his lathe, which is a spring-pole lathe based on examples from the late 1800 and early 1900's.

          Then there is the question of tools, I would say the majority opinion is that today's gouges (roughing, spindle, bowl) and chisels (skew, etc) are not "period", or at best late period. Hooks chisels where probably the major tool..

          There are some photos of Robin's home-made chisels in his book.

          Ralg
          AnTir
        • John Newton
          Greetings, The Book of Trades (Das Standebuch) by Hans Sachs, published in 1568 shows several woodcuts with lathes in them. One for the turner, one for the
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 24 9:08 AM
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            Greetings,

            "The Book of Trades (Das Standebuch)" by Hans Sachs, published in 1568
            shows several woodcuts with lathes in them. One for the turner, one for
            the pewterer, and I think there is another one too. I haven't looked
            really closely at the types, but I think they are all spring pole. In
            any case, it might be worth your time.

            V&A has a digital version with translations online:
            http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/the-book-of-trades-das-standebuch/
            You can buy a print version from Amazon:
            http://www.amazon.com/Book-Trades-Standebuch-Hans-Sachs/dp/048622886X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332605102&sr=8-1

            And you can find most of the images as high res scans on Wikipedia.

            Hope this helps.

            Masahide

            On 3/24/2012 7:15 AM, medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com wrote:
            > 1a. Period lathe references?
            > Posted by: "Ron" williams@... bayard_turner
            > Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:12 pm ((PDT))
            >
            > So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th century references, as far as I can tell. The one in "The Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop" comes from "L'Art du Torneur Mecanecien" by M. Hulot (1775).
            >
            > Following up on questions folks asked at Gulf Wars, I'm trying to find out when this type of lathe first appeared. Unfortunately, all the references I've found so far make these huge broad jumps - "Earliest lathes found on Egyptian walls...Spring pole lathes appear about the 10th century...treadle lathes following deVinci's drawing in the 15th century.
            >
            > Any ideas on other sources I should pursue? I've found "The history of the lathe to 1850" by Woodbury, and "Technology in the Ancient World" by Knopf.
            >
            > Bayard
            >
          • Ron
            The pewterer and the bellmaker in the V&A online version both show great wheel lathes, continuous rotation, requiring an assistant to provide the power.
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 24 7:38 PM
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              The pewterer and the bellmaker in the V&A online version both show great wheel lathes, continuous rotation, requiring an assistant to provide the power. Unfortunately, the turner isn't shown in that version.

              IF you come across other images with lathes, please let me know. I'm starting a file.

              Bayard

              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, John Newton <masahide@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings,
              >
              > "The Book of Trades (Das Standebuch)" by Hans Sachs, published in 1568
              > shows several woodcuts with lathes in them. One for the turner, one for
              > the pewterer, and I think there is another one too. I haven't looked
              > really closely at the types, but I think they are all spring pole. In
              > any case, it might be worth your time.
              >
              > V&A has a digital version with translations online:
              > http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/the-book-of-trades-das-standebuch/
              > You can buy a print version from Amazon:
              > http://www.amazon.com/Book-Trades-Standebuch-Hans-Sachs/dp/048622886X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332605102&sr=8-1
              >
              > And you can find most of the images as high res scans on Wikipedia.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > Masahide
              >
              > On 3/24/2012 7:15 AM, medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              > > 1a. Period lathe references?
              > > Posted by: "Ron" williams@... bayard_turner
              > > Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:12 pm ((PDT))
              > >
              > > So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th century references, as far as I can tell. The one in "The Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop" comes from "L'Art du Torneur Mecanecien" by M. Hulot (1775).
              > >
              > > Following up on questions folks asked at Gulf Wars, I'm trying to find out when this type of lathe first appeared. Unfortunately, all the references I've found so far make these huge broad jumps - "Earliest lathes found on Egyptian walls...Spring pole lathes appear about the 10th century...treadle lathes following deVinci's drawing in the 15th century.
              > >
              > > Any ideas on other sources I should pursue? I've found "The history of the lathe to 1850" by Woodbury, and "Technology in the Ancient World" by Knopf.
              > >
              > > Bayard
              > >
              >
            • Dan Baker
              Due to guilds the lathes of a pewterer and a bellmaker are unrelated to woodworking. I know of no refferances to a woodworkers lathe being anything other then
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 24 7:50 PM
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                Due to guilds the lathes of a pewterer and a bellmaker are unrelated to woodworking.  I know of no refferances to a woodworkers lathe being anything other then a springpole.  While the technology for a flywheel lathe was available there was no need for it in a woodshop when a springpole does the job well.  Also a springpole is cheaper and easily made.  It requires less maintainence.

                On Mar 24, 2012 10:39 PM, "Ron" <williams@...> wrote:
                 

                The pewterer and the bellmaker in the V&A online version both show great wheel lathes, continuous rotation, requiring an assistant to provide the power. Unfortunately, the turner isn't shown in that version.

                IF you come across other images with lathes, please let me know. I'm starting a file.

                Bayard

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, John Newton <masahide@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings,
                >
                > "The Book of Trades (Das Standebuch)" by Hans Sachs, published in 1568
                > shows several woodcuts with lathes in them. One for the turner, one for
                > the pewterer, and I think there is another one too. I haven't looked
                > really closely at the types, but I think they are all spring pole. In
                > any case, it might be worth your time.
                >
                > V&A has a digital version with translations online:
                > http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/the-book-of-trades-das-standebuch/
                > You can buy a print version from Amazon:
                > http://www.amazon.com/Book-Trades-Standebuch-Hans-Sachs/dp/048622886X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332605102&sr=8-1
                >
                > And you can find most of the images as high res scans on Wikipedia.
                >
                > Hope this helps.
                >
                > Masahide
                >
                > On 3/24/2012 7:15 AM, medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                > > 1a. Period lathe references?
                > > Posted by: "Ron" williams@... bayard_turner
                > > Date: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:12 pm ((PDT))
                > >
                > > So now I find that Roy Underhill has built not one but two spring-pole lathes with an under-slung, short pole and a walking beam. Both are based on 18th century references, as far as I can tell. The one in "The Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop" comes from "L'Art du Torneur Mecanecien" by M. Hulot (1775).
                > >
                > > Following up on questions folks asked at Gulf Wars, I'm trying to find out when this type of lathe first appeared. Unfortunately, all the references I've found so far make these huge broad jumps - "Earliest lathes found on Egyptian walls...Spring pole lathes appear about the 10th century...treadle lathes following deVinci's drawing in the 15th century.
                > >
                > > Any ideas on other sources I should pursue? I've found "The history of the lathe to 1850" by Woodbury, and "Technology in the Ancient World" by Knopf.
                > >
                > > Bayard
                > >
                >

              • Ralph
                ... Well... Stuart King, in his history of the lathe (http://www.stuartking.co.uk/index.php/history-of-the-lathe-part-two-continuous-rotation/ ) disagrees with
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 24 10:06 PM
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                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Dan Baker <LordRhys@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Due to guilds the lathes of a pewterer and a bellmaker are unrelated to
                  > woodworking. I know of no refferances to a woodworkers lathe being
                  > anything other then a springpole. While the technology for a flywheel
                  > lathe was available there was no need for it in a woodshop when a
                  > springpole does the job well. Also a springpole is cheaper and easily
                  > made. It requires less maintainence.

                  Well... Stuart King, in his history of the lathe (http://www.stuartking.co.uk/index.php/history-of-the-lathe-part-two-continuous-rotation/ ) disagrees with on several points you made. Dan, I don't know your background, but I do know his, and well, it's purty strong.

                  Further, John Edwards the (past) president of the Ornamental Turners, states the full Ornamental turning was being done in Germany (and surrounding areas by the 15th Century. Trust me when I tell you, doing full OT on a reciprocal action lathe, is well, not possible.

                  I've even found some references to water-powered lathes in period. But I have a tendency to distrust those, just has I have for the reference I found that King Henry VII (England) dabbled in turning.

                  Spring-pole, was, and is, the predominate lathe, at least for man-power. But to say that there was no continuous rotation lathes is certainly reaching.

                  Ralg
                  AnTir
                • Dan Baker
                  I only said I know of no refferances. I would love to see some.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 25 4:32 AM
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                    I only said I know of no refferances. I would love to see some.

                    On Mar 25, 2012 1:06 AM, "Ralph" <n7bsn@...> wrote:
                     



                    --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Dan Baker <LordRhys@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Due to guilds the lathes of a pewterer and a bellmaker are unrelated to
                    > woodworking. I know of no refferances to a woodworkers lathe being
                    > anything other then a springpole. While the technology for a flywheel
                    > lathe was available there was no need for it in a woodshop when a
                    > springpole does the job well. Also a springpole is cheaper and easily
                    > made. It requires less maintainence.

                    Well... Stuart King, in his history of the lathe (http://www.stuartking.co.uk/index.php/history-of-the-lathe-part-two-continuous-rotation/ ) disagrees with on several points you made. Dan, I don't know your background, but I do know his, and well, it's purty strong.

                    Further, John Edwards the (past) president of the Ornamental Turners, states the full Ornamental turning was being done in Germany (and surrounding areas by the 15th Century. Trust me when I tell you, doing full OT on a reciprocal action lathe, is well, not possible.

                    I've even found some references to water-powered lathes in period. But I have a tendency to distrust those, just has I have for the reference I found that King Henry VII (England) dabbled in turning.

                    Spring-pole, was, and is, the predominate lathe, at least for man-power. But to say that there was no continuous rotation lathes is certainly reaching.

                    Ralg
                    AnTir

                  • Broom
                    Lord Rhys ... Despite this, the complicated technology of the lathe itself transcends a single guild/profession. There is a period depiction of a lens-grinders
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 25 8:15 AM
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                      Lord Rhys

                      > Due to guilds the lathes of a pewterer and a bellmaker are unrelated to
                      > woodworking.

                      Despite this, the complicated technology of the lathe itself
                      transcends a single guild/profession. There is a period depiction of a
                      lens-grinders lathe which is essentially a woodworker's spring lathe,
                      with the addition of a right-angle pulley at the work center to
                      convert it from horizontal to vertical turning action.


                      Ralg:
                      > References on period lathes tend to be a little thin.

                      It's a relative statement. I'd use the word "plentiful and detailed", myself.

                      ' | Broom IAmBroom @ gmail . com
                      ' | cellphone: 412-389-1997
                      ' | 923 Haslage Ave, Pittsburgh, PA 15212
                      ' | "Discere et docere", which means:
                      '\|/ "Literature is the art of writing something that will be read
                      '/|\ twice; journalism what will be grasped at once."
                      //|\\ - Cyril Connolly
                    • Ron
                      I looked at Stuart King s history, and while I agree with a good part of what he says, I don t see any sources. At one point he says, Leonardo is often
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 26 8:58 PM
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                        I looked at Stuart King's history, and while I agree with a good part of what he says, I don't see any sources. At one point he says, "Leonardo is often attributed to the invention of the wheel lathe but I think it is more likely he was sketching something quite well known in his time. Indeed I think it almost certain that the cranked wheel lathe was known in Roman times." I'd love to see his evidence for that.

                        I'm still focusing on the spring pole lathe. What I want to explore is the different ways turners have found to make use of the pole to get the desired effect: long pole staked to the ground, long pole supported above the lathe, short pole at the top of a post, short pole and walking beam combination.

                        Thanks for your continued feedback!

                        Bayard
                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph" <n7bsn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        ...
                        > Well... Stuart King, in his history of the lathe (http://www.stuartking.co.uk/index.php/history-of-the-lathe-part-two-continuous-rotation/ )
                      • Ralph
                        ... King is probably saying that as Da Vinci is known for both coming up with new ideas and repackaging old ideas, without bothering to identify which is
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 27 4:39 PM
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                          --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <williams@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I looked at Stuart King's history, and while I agree with a good part of what he says, I don't see any sources. At one point he says, "Leonardo is often attributed to the invention of the wheel lathe but I think it is more likely he was sketching something quite well known in his time. Indeed I think it almost certain that the cranked wheel lathe was known in Roman times." I'd love to see his evidence for that.
                          >
                          King is probably saying that as Da Vinci is known for both coming up with new ideas and repackaging old ideas, without bothering to identify which is which.

                          I don't know of any great-wheel type wood lathes in the Roman era, but we know, from the tooling marks on the crown pieces of some auxiliary troop helm's that these crowns where spun and not hammered. The conjecture is they were either made on a water-wheel powered, or great-wheel powered "lathe" type device.

                          Ralg
                          AnTir
                        • Scot Eddy
                          Ya ll have been awesome with my questions! Thank you! I feel kinda bad asking another question, but where can I get a small piece of lumber resawn? I don t
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 29 12:22 PM
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                            Ya'll have been awesome with my questions! Thank you!

                            I feel kinda bad asking another question, but where can I get a small piece of lumber resawn?

                            I don't have a bandsaw and I've struck out with folks I know in the area.

                            I have a piece of 1x12 soft maple (3/4" thick) and I'd like to get 3 soundboards out of it. Any ideas?

                            Thanks a million!

                            Scot
                          • Eric
                            Hi Scot, You might try local community colleges. Many have woodshop equipment. You might have to register for an adult class (usually pretty cheap) to have
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 29 2:01 PM
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                              Hi Scot,

                              You might try local community colleges. Many have woodshop equipment. You might have to register for an adult class (usually pretty cheap) to have consistent access for a couple of months. Alternatively, you might be able to talk the shop staff into doing some quick work for some sort of donation or barter.

                              YIS,
                              Eirikr

                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Ya'll have been awesome with my questions! Thank you!
                              >
                              > I feel kinda bad asking another question, but where can I get a small piece of lumber resawn?
                              >
                              > I don't have a bandsaw and I've struck out with folks I know in the area.
                              >
                              > I have a piece of 1x12 soft maple (3/4" thick) and I'd like to get 3 soundboards out of it. Any ideas?
                              >
                              > Thanks a million!
                              >
                              > Scot
                              >
                            • camdus17@juno.com
                              Hi Scot, Try your State University Co-operative Extension. Ours (here in Washington State) provides a list of small independent mills. It was through this
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 29 6:49 PM
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                                Hi Scot,

                                  Try your State University Co-operative Extension.  Ours (here in Washington State) provides a list of small independent mills.  It was through this list that I found a great small mill in a local community that does my resawing for a reasonable price.

                                Domestique,

                                  Dunstan



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                              • Prudentia
                                my local home depot will cut any piece of wood for $1 a cut, if you tell them you bought it there orginally they might give you there standard first cut for
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 3, 2012
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                                  my local home depot will cut any piece of wood for $1 a cut, if you tell them you bought it there orginally they might give you there standard first cut for free, which is there policy.

                                  pru
                                • Avery Austringer
                                  ... Don t - people discussing solutions for a problem someone is having is one of the big differences between this list and a lot of Yahoo groups that are just
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
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                                    > I feel kinda bad asking another question...

                                    Don't - people discussing solutions for a problem someone is having is one of the big differences between this list and a lot of Yahoo groups that are just hanging on out there.

                                    > I have a piece of 1x12 soft maple (3/4" thick) and I'd like to get 3 soundboards out of it. Any ideas?

                                    How thick do these need to be? I ask because even with a good band saw, take away two kerf thicknesses and you're talking about ≈3/16 pieces of wood only if your cut is perfectly straight and vertical.

                                    Depending on how often you have to do this and how much of an exciting learning experience you are up for you could make a veneer saw (the traditional making logs into veneer kind, see about half way down here: http://www.antiqbuyer.com/All_Archives/TOOLS_ARCHIVE/archive-saws.htm) and cut it by hand. Plus, you get to look all smug and stuff because you can tell people you cut it by hand with a tool you made yourself. Highland Working and Traditional Woodworker both will sell you a rip blade for a frame saw for less that $20.

                                    If you go this route, go all around the piece first with a marking gauge. It will make keeping things straight a lot easier.

                                    Avery
                                  • Scot Eddy
                                    Good luck on my end. Thank you all for the advice. I got ahold of the local community college framing and construction department. I have an appointment to get
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
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                                      Good luck on my end. Thank you all for the advice. I got ahold of the local community college framing and construction department. I have an appointment to get the pieces resawn. 

                                      Avery, cool pics, but how is it used?

                                      Thanks everyone.

                                      Jovian


                                    • Dave Ordway
                                      I have had success using a thin blade pull saw. I have cut shavings to an 1/16th of an inch. Lowe s currently carries Japanese style saws under the name of
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
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                                        I have had success using a thin blade pull saw.  I have cut shavings to an 1/16th of an inch.  Lowe's currently carries Japanese style saws under the name of Bear.  No bamboo handle but a nice thin blade.  I use them allot for dovetailing and other joinery involved in box and bow making.  Price is good; under 20 bucks but there is a learning curve.  Do not force, let the saw do the work.  And remember, it's a pull saw not a push.
                                         
                                        Lagerstein
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:37 PM
                                        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Resaw question

                                         

                                        > I feel kinda bad asking another question...

                                        Don't - people discussing solutions for a problem someone is having is one of the big differences between this list and a lot of Yahoo groups that are just hanging on out there.

                                        > I have a piece of 1x12 soft maple (3/4" thick) and I'd like to get 3 soundboards out of it. Any ideas?

                                        How thick do these need to be? I ask because even with a good band saw, take away two kerf thicknesses and you're talking about ≈3/16 pieces of wood only if your cut is perfectly straight and vertical.

                                        Depending on how often you have to do this and how much of an exciting learning experience you are up for you could make a veneer saw (the traditional making logs into veneer kind, see about half way down here: http://www.antiqbuyer.com/All_Archives/TOOLS_ARCHIVE/archive-saws.htm) and cut it by hand. Plus, you get to look all smug and stuff because you can tell people you cut it by hand with a tool you made yourself. Highland Working and Traditional Woodworker both will sell you a rip blade for a frame saw for less that $20.

                                        If you go this route, go all around the piece first with a marking gauge. It will make keeping things straight a lot easier.

                                        Avery

                                      • Scot Eddy
                                        Went to our local community college and got 2 boards resawn for free! Cool shop to boot, must find a way to take classes there. Thanks for the suggestion.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 13, 2012
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                                          Went to our local community college and got 2 boards resawn for free! Cool shop to boot, must find a way to take classes there.

                                          Thanks for the suggestion.

                                          Grace and Peace,

                                          Jovian

                                          p.s. Found these shop tips. I already knew a few of them. Others will be incorporated immediately.
                                          http://imgur.com/a/e19Ap


                                        • conradh@efn.org
                                          ... Check their rates, but a community college adult ed. shop class is often a cheap way to get access to some major power tools in a large space. Often you
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 16, 2012
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                                            > Went to our local community college and got 2 boards resawn for free! Cool
                                            > shop to boot, must find a way to take classes there.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the suggestion.
                                            >
                                            > Grace and Peace,
                                            >
                                            > Jovian
                                            >
                                            Check their rates, but a community college adult ed. shop class is often a
                                            cheap way to get access to some major power tools in a large space. Often
                                            you learn or show you know the basics and after that can just work on your
                                            own projects.

                                            Ulfhedinn
                                          • David
                                            Even larger colleges often have night courses. I took bronze casting, and many of my fellow students had been taking the same course for 10 years for access to
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 16, 2012
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                                              Even larger colleges often have night courses. I took bronze casting, and many of my fellow students had been taking the same course for 10 years for access to the equipment.

                                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, conradh@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Went to our local community college and got 2 boards resawn for free! Cool
                                              > > shop to boot, must find a way to take classes there.
                                              > >
                                              > > Thanks for the suggestion.
                                              > >
                                              > > Grace and Peace,
                                              > >
                                              > > Jovian
                                              > >
                                              > Check their rates, but a community college adult ed. shop class is often a
                                              > cheap way to get access to some major power tools in a large space. Often
                                              > you learn or show you know the basics and after that can just work on your
                                              > own projects.
                                              >
                                              > Ulfhedinn
                                              >
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